Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat happens if white just tries to hold onto the center with Qe2? Which seems more thematic if it works.
yes this line with 5...Bd6 is incredibly interesting, if black plays f6 he has the standard french center and white is left with an isolated queen pawn, for example
[pgn]1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 Bd6 6. Bg2 Nge7 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1
b6 9. e5 Bc7 10. c3 Ng6 11. d4 cxd4 12. cxd4 f6 13. exf6 Qxf6[/pgn]
Originally posted by paultopiaAfter 1 e4, 1...d5 is the definitive "anti-KIA" move. 2 d3 de 3 de Qd1 4 Kd1 can't be good for White (can it?), and 2 d3 de 3 Nc3 ed 4 Bd3 is an interesting gambit (a reversed Hartlaub I believe), but not something that a typical KIA fan will enjoy as White. After 1...c5, White can play 2 d3, because 2...d5 3 Nd2 is fine for White. The downside of 2 d3 is that it prevents White from hiding his intentions about whether or not s/he's going to play an Open or a Closed Sicilian. Like my momma always said: "If it's not one thing, it's another..."
Watch out, however, for annoying transpositions... For example, I tend to play 2. Nf3 against the sicilian...Recently someone played 2. ... d5 -- and suddenly I was stuck in some kind of bizarre scandanivian position with a pawn on c5, no way to keep my KIA going.
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Originally posted by passedpawn22Have you tried the Chigorin variation Qe2?
Two variations interest me against the French as white: The advance variation (3.e5) and the KIA (2.d3 d5 3.Nd2) or (2.Nd2, but I believe this is the Tarrasch variation). Anybody have thoughts or experience with these 2 or 3 variations? I haven't faced the french often but would like to be prepared for it.
Thanks!
Originally posted by UllrAfter 1 e4 e6 2 Qe2 c5, Black is probably equal already since it's hard to believe that the Queen belongs on e2 in a Kan Sicilian setup (normally reached by 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6). On the other hand, if Black doesn't normally play the Sicilian Defense, then White probably has a very real advantage if s/he is familiar with and likes the position. Getting one's opponent out of their "safety zone" (in the opening, that can mean getting them out of their 'book'😉 can reap benefits.
Have you tried the Chigorin variation Qe2?
1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 c5 is another good way to go into the KIA. You can make typical g3 Bg2 Nf3 0-0, etc. A fun thing about this variation is you can throw in f4 before Nf3. In a lot of King's Indians, you have to play Nf3, Ne1, and only then f4. 1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 e5 !? 3. f4 is a very strange King's Gambit with Qe2 thrown in for free. Does it help or hurt though? Tarrasch's book 300 Games has some nice games with Chigorin (Tchigorin?) playing Qe2 against him. I think the ones in the book are all black wins (being his game collection), but they are very interesting games. Of course 1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 d5 3. exd5 is the point. Black has to play Qxd5. The positions are still playable for both sides. 1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 b6 is interesting, maybe with Ba6. 1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 Be7 (intending d5 and exd5 exd5) 3. b3 was Chigorin's move. On 3. ... Bf6 4. e5 Be7 5. Qg4 gives pressure.
1. e4 e6 2. b3 is very interesting too, but I'll save all that for another post. 🙂
this is the point Ziegler makes, in that its almost impossible to decide so early where the queen belongs, e.g. 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 dxe4 4. dxe4 e5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Qb5, with equal play. 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 Be7 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. g3 O-O 6. Bg2 c5 7. O-O Nc6 8. e5 Nd7 (theory recommends 8... Ne8) 9. c4 Kh8 (preparing f6) 10. h4 f6 and black has a comfortable position, illustrated below, and against 2.Qe2 he recommends 2...Be7 with no problems
1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 Be7 "with no problems". That doesn't really say anything. It's still a typical KIA vs French. You're not going to get an advantage with the KIA in the first place. You're just going to imbalance the position and play a position that your familiar with. Truthfully, there is probably no way to force an advantage vs any main line opening. Even with books in correspondence chess, people play lines they know, rather than rattle out non existent refutations. Take the Austrian Attack for example. For years, 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 was considered great for white in grandmaster chess. Then came the line 4. ... Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 and black seems to at least equalize in every variation. I bet nowadays nobody even plays white much. That's one of the reasons I stopped buying books. Opening theory comes and goes, but chess is always chess. 🙂
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromficsit may suit some players style, i myself no longer play the french, its, i dunno, too subtle, you need to be a sculptor, not a butcher like me, anyhow, i was just showing some of the ideas that zeigler was presenting, here is one of the 3.Qe2 variations, a kind of Ruy lopez with the queen.(Zeigler is quite disparaging, even mocking when he describes whites attack)
I don't understand why you would play 2. d3 and 3. Qe2. Why not just 2. Qe2?
'oh no terrifying', he says
The French does take a certain temperment to play it right. Sometimes you fight for 10 moves or so just for control of a single square. 🙂 The thing I like best about it is its rock solidness. It is very hard for white to work up a quick attack if played correctly. Black has the clear cut plans too. (Make white advance to e5, play c5 to undermine d4, play f6 to get rid of the e5 wedge, and use the two center pawns on e6 and d5 to get a queen.) In my opinion, the absolute best book on the French is Mastering The French With The Read And Play Method. It's by McDonald & Harley. They may have revised it, I don't know (my edition is 1997). It has chapters based on the pawn structures rather than variations. A close second is Play The French By John Watson ( I have the 2nd Edition, although a 3rd Edition is in print). It has every conceivable move white can through at you in analysis format (not database games printed out). It only covers the Winawer vs 3. Nc3 (the new edition as has 3. ... Nf6), but gives more than one variation for black. Number 3 on my French list is Winning With The French By Uhlmann. It is outrageously prices sometimes, but I found a cheap copy on ebay. It is 60 of his games in every variation with the French. This is a GM who plays ONLY the French. It includes a win and draw on the black side with Fischer. Other French advocates include Emanuel Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine,Botvinnik (Big French Player), and Korchnoi.
AS I SAID YOU HAVE TO BE VERY PATIENT TO PLAY THE FRENCH.
If you take it up though, it is a defense you will NEVER have to give up, unlike all the fun gambits and unorthodox openings that don't hold up.
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromficsmmmm, i am not sure what you're objection is, who was it that was stating that there was some type of advantage to be had in opening either for black or for white with regard to the KIA? or any other opening variation for that matter? its a matter of taste, nothing more, and who was claiming a refutation of any main line opening? ive tried but cannot find the remark. if its with regard to 1.e4 e6, 2.Qe2 Be7, whats the deal, its just one way of playing, i am sure there are others
1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 Be7 "with no problems". That doesn't really say anything. It's still a typical KIA vs French. You're not going to get an advantage with the KIA in the first place. You're just going to imbalance the position and play a position that your familiar with. Truthfully, there is probably no way to force an advantage vs any main li ns I stopped buying books. Opening theory comes and goes, but chess is always chess. 🙂
I don't play the French, but prefer the modern, I play 1.g6, Bg7 and c5 for EVERYTHING as black, why, because it ultra flexible, provocative and leads to dynamic play and your right there is probably no way to force an advantage but there sure are many ways to be at a disadvantage, so it helps to know the reason why, does it not, for example, you play the main line KIA, 1.e4 e6, 2.d3 d5, 3.Nd2 c5, 4.Ngf3 Nc6, 5.g3 and lets say ...Nf6, the line then goes 6.Bg2 Be7 7.0-0 and either 7...b6 or 7...0-0, so our opponent plays 7...b5 instead, what do we say, 'oh my opponent has discovered a novelty', or do we look at theory which states that it is too loose, for after 8.exd5 exd5 9.c4 bxc4, 10.dxc4 0-0, 11.b3 Bf5, 12.cxd5 Nxd5, 13.Bb2 was clearly better for white in Schoneberg-Zinn 1972, whites pieces are well placed and black has weak pawns on the queenside. is this not the value of opening books?
if anyone knows of anyone who plays the modern, then i woiuld be much oblidged, i heard that Mamedyarov plays it but cannot find any of his games.