Only Chess
14 Aug 06
16 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by TippedKingYou are actually wrong. I have agreed a draw on this because (short of using a table base I do not have the ability to win it)
This position is a dead draw. I am not really sure why it is getting so much discussion. It doesn't matter if people talk about it as an 'in progress' game because there is absolutely no way, short of brutal blunder allowing that pawn to promote, that this game will end any other way.
The game could be won by black, certainly, if white made a horrendous blunder and allowed the P to queen but more likely the game could be won by white if the black king could be forced into the a1 or h8 corners. That could have happened if black made a mistake.
Unfortunately whilst I was able to force black into the a8 corner I could not mate there as I required 3 P moves to get my N back and deliver mate as he queened. I could have done this on move 55 if I had played Nf3 but instead I moved my K in the mistaken belief that if I kept his K on the side of the board I could force it to h8.
Apparently a tablebase shows a mate in 48 if white played Nf3 at move 55.
This position is hugely interesting from a theoretical view which is why I posted it. How often have you seem K & 2N vs K & P in a theorectically won position (which it was on move 55). I have only ever seen it in books never OTB.
There is now another debate on the 50 move rule where XNZ seems to think the exceptions have been repealed.
16 Aug 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZI have looked up FIDEs current rules and can certainly agree that rule 9.3 of FIDEs Laws of Chess is unambiguous as regards the 50 move rule.
Guess I wasn't wrong.
If that is the case when was this amended as 100 moves used to be allowed for K & 2N vs K & P where the P was on certain defined squares and is still stated to be the case in many currently available books.
16 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Dragon FireI think it was FIDE Congress of 1992 but certainly by 1997. (Stewart Ruebens Chess organisers Handbook 2001 edition)
I have looked up FIDEs current rules and can certainly agree that rule 9.3 of FIDEs Laws of Chess is unambiguous as regards the 50 move rule.
If that is the case when was this amended as 100 moves used to be allowed for K & 2N vs K & P where the P was on certain defined squares and is still stated to be the case in many currently available books.
16 Aug 06
Originally posted by Dragon FireSeems to think they have been repealed? They have been repealed. And all your opponent has to do to avoid mate is not move onto a corner square. Simple.
You are actually wrong. I have agreed a draw on this because (short of using a table base I do not have the ability to win it)
The game could be won by black, certainly, if white made a horrendous blunder and allowed the P to queen but more likely the game could be won by white if the black king could be forced into the a1 or h8 corners. That could ha ...[text shortened]... w another debate on the 50 move rule where XNZ seems to think the exceptions have been repealed.
16 Aug 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZHe can be forced to the corner! but unfortunately he gets to choose the corner and he choose a8. If he had choosen a1 or h8 he could have been mated. The K can be restricted to h8 and h7 only or similar squares in another corner and he can be forced there.
Seems to think they have been repealed? They have been repealed. And all your opponent has to do to avoid mate is not move onto a corner square. Simple.
17 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Dragon FireHow does corner colour change things with knights on the board?
He can be forced to the corner! but unfortunately he gets to choose the corner and he choose a8. If he had choosen a1 or h8 he could have been mated. The K can be restricted to h8 and h7 only or similar squares in another corner and he can be forced there.
17 Aug 06
5 edits
It is true that after 57..... Ka3 (instead of Ka5) Black is mated.
57........Ka3
58. Kb5 Ka2
59. Ka4 Kb2
60. Kb4 Ka1
61. Kc3 Ka2
62. Nb5 Kb1
63. Na3+ Ka2
64. Nc4 Kb1
65. Kd2 Ka2
66. Kc2 Ka1
67. Kb3 Kb1
68. Nd3 Ka1
70. Na3 f2
71. Nb4 f1=Q
72. Nbc2# 1-0
The f2 knight needs 4 moves to mate in the a8 corner (too many) but only 3 moves in the a1 or h8 corners.
17 Aug 06
Originally posted by Dragon FirePerhaps we have fundamentally different perspectives on chess analysis. I don't consider a position theoretically won if I have to count on my opponent making multiple sequential and conveniently advantageous blunders giving me the win.
You are actually wrong. I have agreed a draw on this because (short of using a table base I do not have the ability to win it)
The game could be won by black, certainly, if white made a horrendous blunder and allowed the P to queen but more likely the game could be won by white if the black king could be forced into the a1 or h8 corners. That could have happened if black made a mistake.
The position you posted is a drawn position, no matter what spin you choose to place on it. In the game itself white had a respectable advantage, for a while, that could have been turned into a victory but it was lost after some less than optimal positional choices.
At the risk of someone quoting the old adage about teaching a pig to sing, I will, one last time, state that the position is drawn.
17 Aug 06
Originally posted by TippedKingThe position as initially posted just before whites 55th move was a forced win for white and did not rely on multiple blunders from black.
Perhaps we have fundamentally different perspectives on chess analysis. I don't consider a position theoretically won if I have to count on my opponent making multiple sequential and conveniently advantageous blunders giving me the win.
The position you posted is a drawn position, no matter what spin you choose to place on it. In the game itself wh ...[text shortened]... ld adage about teaching a pig to sing, I will, one last time, state that the position is drawn.
This has been confirmed by "Thudanblunder" from a Tablebase.
After move 55 black can be forced to a corner and there is a forced win if he selects a1 or h8. Just one wrong move rather than multiple blunders is all that it would have taken (see Thundanblunders posting above).
With the black P on the board we are not taking about black blundering into a silly mate in the corner. That is why I posted this game because I was certain that it was a win on move 55 (and I wasn't worried about talking about it, and neither was my opponent, because I recognised that without using a tablebase my ability to force it was probably zero and a draw was inevitable. This was due solely to my inability - a GM would have won it, or a cheater. In fact my 1st move suceeded in throwing the win away).
As far as earlier errors were concerned the game was played as a blitz game with each side taking only seconds to move so mistakes were inevitible. At move 55 the game became theorectically interesting, hence I posted it.
17 Aug 06
Originally posted by ThudanBlunderWould you be kind enough to post for those doubters (and me if I ever come across this again) the forced mate following move 56 Nf3.
A) 56....f3 draws; Ka4 is mate in 36; Ka6 mate in 43.
B) 56. Kc5? was a mistake; 56. Nf3! was the only winning move (mate in 48).
The TableBase has spoken!
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mueller35.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mueller36.pdf