15 Feb 12
Originally posted by PhySiQIn all the discussions about this game I can't understand why black's plan of Bg4 and Bf3 isn't heavily criticized. It looks a shocker to me, free risk, stable, long term advantage to white: reducing black to attempt to grovel for a draw. Very unpleasant.
This is a game that finished here recently between Morgski and I. Morgski says he'll be adding annotations here momentarily. I know I was drinking a little when I originally annotated this so hopefully it all makes sense 😉 -- I'm still drinkin, its much more productive than thinkin! (kidding..)
Enjoy:
[pgn][Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.re ...[text shortened]... exchange still results in a white win.} Be5 44. Kg4 [/pgn]
Q
15 Feb 12
Originally posted by queenabberI didn't really like this idea either... I was thinking something like 8... d5 9. 0-0 (seems ok and exchanging on d5 just frees black up) 9... Bf5!?
In all the discussions about this game I can't understand why black's plan of Bg4 and Bf3 isn't heavily criticized. It looks a shocker to me, free risk, stable, long term advantage to white: reducing black to attempt to grovel for a draw. Very unpleasant.
I wasn't quite sure about this idea but if 10.Bxf5 gxf5 black now has dominance over e4 with a half open g file to boot.
My other Ideas were ...c5 or ...e5.
15 Feb 12
Originally posted by queenabber10... Ne8 11.Nxg6 fxg6 12. Bxg6 might be a crazy line... white gets three pawns and then some for the piece.
I would have though playing for e5 was the solid way to play for black. After 8.Bd3!?, I wonder if the immediate 8... e5 was possible, eg
if
9. de de
10. Ne5 doesn't look possible after Ne8
16 Feb 12
As white against 8... e5 I'd leave it... I would simply play 9. O-O. Depending on black intentions I might push a4 soon and leave the possibility of d5! as long as possible. I don't know that I'd say black hurt himself with Bxf3. Black is still rather flexible and hasn't made anything committal yet.
Perhaps e5 Re8 Nd7 and Qc7 are logical continuations after Bxf3. I don't think I'd hold Bxf3 a mistake or questionable. Black had lots of planning to do - Bxf3 doesn't necessarily weaken or strengthen them in my eyes.
Q
16 Feb 12
Originally posted by PhySiQWhat on 8...d5?
As white against 8... e5 I'd leave it... I would simply play 9. O-O. Depending on black intentions I might push a4 soon and leave the possibility of d5! as long as possible. I don't know that I'd say black hurt himself with Bxf3. Black is still rather flexible and hasn't made anything committal yet.
Perhaps e5 Re8 Nd7 and Qc7 are logical continuations ...[text shortened]... of planning to do - Bxf3 doesn't necessarily weaken or strengthen them in my eyes.
Q
16 Feb 12
Originally posted by tomtom232Queenabber had said e5 in his earlier post. I didn't see ...d5 as a suggested move. I must have missed the boat on that one.
What on 8...d5?
He also cited Bxf3 as questionable on move 9. I simply don't think its that clear. I don't know that as Black I would have thought it was a needed exchange.. but that's blacks plans, not whites.
Q
16 Feb 12
Originally posted by PhySiQI cited 8...d5 as an interesting idea. With 8...d5 9.0-0 Bf5!?
Queenabber had said e5 in his earlier post. I didn't see ...d5 as a suggested move. I must have missed the boat on that one.
He also cited Bxf3 as questionable on move 9. I simply don't think its that clear. I don't know that as Black I would have thought it was a needed exchange.. but that's blacks plans, not whites.
Q
16 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by queenabberHaha, these are harsh words 😉
In all the discussions about this game I can't understand why black's plan of Bg4 and Bf3 isn't heavily criticized. It looks a shocker to me, free risk, stable, long term advantage to white: reducing black to attempt to grovel for a draw. Very unpleasant.
I like the idea of grovelling for a draw, sums up how one feels at that stage of a game. For my part, I don't see that Bg4 is too bad a move, but in hindsight Bxf3 was. A case of playing not playing the position, I wanted simplification as soon as I could.
We all make mistakes...
16 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by morgskiWhen I take both sides of the board I think their are plans for black that actually lend to blacks choice. I'm not sure its the best continuation, but I don't think its bad. To me black chose to trade off two pieces of relatively little importance at this stage in the game. Its difficult to call such a decision a "mistake" because I think each side is still flexible enough to make his current pieces better.
Haha, these are harsh words 😉
I like the idea of grovelling for a draw, sums up how one feels at that stage of a game. For my part, I don't see that Bg4 is too bad a move, but in hindsight Bxf3 was. A case of playing not playing the position, I wanted simplification as soon as I could.
We all make mistakes...
To me black is just fine. I think black can play on with relative equality. Their may indeed be winning chances for black if he opens the dark diagonal and keeps those light squares unimportant as long as possible.
As white, I'd be looking to trade off the dark squared bishops, and then blow the center open with my rooks on the center files. I'd play the waiting game until my light squared bishop becomes more and more active. This is why Mr. Pawn was right in his analysis. White likes the center opening up, it hands him the board.
Black is fine in my mind, he has counterplay.
Q
16 Feb 12
Originally posted by tomtom232I like white here. That is more than welcome to me as white.
[pgn]1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. Nf3 d6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bd2 O-O 7. e3 c6 8. Bd3 d5 9. 0-0 Bf5 {to get rid /trade light squared bishops... must be painfully obvious to most of you that is what the aim is but I'm not sure how great it is. It seems like a good idea but I can't quite judge the position} 10. Be2 {say} dxc4 11.Bxc4 Nd7 {heading to d5 via b6} 12. Re1 {getting ready to push the e pawn} Nb6 13.Bb3[/pgn]
Q
16 Feb 12
3 edits
Originally posted by PhySiQ
I like white here. That is more than welcome to me as white.
[pgn]1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. Nf3 d6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bd2 O-O 7. e3 c6
8. Bd3 d5 9. O-O Bf5 10. Bxf5 gxf5 {White doesn't care about the more centralized pawn or blacks open g file... neither are overly important with a little simplification } 11. cxd5 Nxd5 { White wants black to play Nxd5, ...[text shortened]... ake several moves to try to use his weapons and shore up the new found weaknesses } [/pgn]
Q
I don't think it wins for either side here or before... This kind of play would suit my style more.
16 Feb 12
Originally posted by PhySiQcontinuing our discussion
As white against 8... e5 I'd leave it... I would simply play 9. O-O. Depending on black intentions I might push a4 soon and leave the possibility of d5! as long as possible. I don't know that I'd say black hurt himself with Bxf3. Black is still rather flexible and hasn't made anything committal yet.
Perhaps e5 Re8 Nd7 and Qc7 are logical continuations ...[text shortened]... of planning to do - Bxf3 doesn't necessarily weaken or strengthen them in my eyes.
Q
8......e5
9. O-O say Re8 (threatening e4 of course)
eg
10. Qc2 Bg4 then
11. Ne1 e4 is possible, so instead
10. Bc2!? but it is hard to believe white has much of an edge
the fact that black seems to be perfectly okay was the basis of my "harsh" (sorry Morgski) words about 8..... Bg4 etc
ps nice game by white mind
17 Feb 12
Originally posted by tomtom232Mr. TomTom,
[pgn]1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. Nf3 d6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bd2 O-O 7. e3 c6
8. Bd3 d5 9. O-O Bf5 10. Bxf5 gxf5 {White doesn't care about the more centralized pawn or blacks open g file... neither are overly important with a little simplification } 11. cxd5 Ne4 12. dxc6 Nxc6 13. Nxe4 fxe4 14. Ne1 e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 {and the g file will play a dangerous role in ...[text shortened]... 't think it wins for either side here or before... This kind of play would suit my style more.
You do have a good idea - but I think white holds the pawn and stays safe... White doesn't need to touch the Knight on e4.
Q