27 Dec 11
Originally posted by PhySiQhahah, no, I suck at endings. I know a few silly things very well, but generally my understanding of endings is very limited. both you & paul have decades of experience over me in that department (as well). I bet even GP would run circles around me in endgames even though he likes to bash them. you can't play decades of chess without learning a thing or two about endings, even if you "don't want to." - me, I'm still wet behind my ears. no wait, maybe it's just beer...
I'm drinking a Bud Light. Wishing that there was a darker brew for cheaper nearby. Unfortunately here in Lake Havasu the brews are a bit steep.
I'd bring the clock and board out too - we'd find out who had all this ending knowledge we're discussing! (My bet is this wormwood character!)
Q
27 Dec 11
Originally posted by PhySiQfeel? BODYCHECK! 😀 that's always my first instinct with these, walk the king up & restrict opponent's king. see if you can push him back. only then I'll start looking at the exchanges.
Back to more important things... White to move! What do you "FEEL" is the right answer for white?
[fen]8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1 [/fen]
Q
but like I said, I suck at endings. 🙂
27 Dec 11
Originally posted by wormwoodI'd say thats a pretty darn good "feeling". Now, knowing that - do you look at your opponents king and how he's going to march up and restrict you?
feel? BODYCHECK! 😀 that's always my first instinct with these, walk the king up & restrict opponent's king. see if you can push him back. only then I'll start looking at the exchanges.
but like I said, I suck at endings. 🙂
What can/are you going to do about it? I'd say this takes up more than half of K+P's ending technique.
Q
27 Dec 11
First off, Trappist Monks know a thing or two about beer.
My gut reaction with no thought was Kd3 but it doesn't take much calculation to become suspcious of the idea- i.e. bxc4 Kxc4 h5 - an annoying move which makes advancing the majority more difficult. Nonetheless it looks good for white as every way I move the pieces around white queens first.
Naturally once you see the h5 move for black you will consider taking it away as white. So instead of worrying about something like a Q V Q ending it makes sense to not rush and just improve the position.
Either way the position appears totally winning for White.
27 Dec 11
Originally posted by nimzo5Yeah - I believe it is totally winning. In my eyes I just needed to force black to play Kf5. Get him onto f5 and white wins easily. Perhaps the "best line" is to capture first then play h5. I don't know. On a board in dainty light and a pitcher of beer half gone, I'd push h5 and make the sucker prove it wrong.
First off, Trappist Monks know a thing or two about beer.
My gut reaction with no thought was Kd3 but it doesn't take much calculation to become suspcious of the idea- i.e. bxc4 Kxc4 h5 - an annoying move which makes advancing the majority more difficult. Nonetheless it looks good for white as every way I move the pieces around white queens first.
Nat ...[text shortened]... h and just improve the position.
Either way the position appears totally winning for White.
Good thinking nimzo!
Q
28 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by nimzo5that whas my gut reaction was too, but I don't see how ...h5 does anything? h4 and black's in zugzswang, isn't he? his king can't go to help, or queenside falls, and he can't move g- nor c-pawn.
My gut reaction with no thought was Kd3 but it doesn't take much calculation to become suspcious of the idea- i.e. bxc4 Kxc4 h5 - an annoying move which makes advancing the majority more difficult.
I mean I still haven't calculated anything, I'm just looking at the squares white controls and the fact the 3 kingside pawns kill the 2 unless black king helps.
didn't sleep much last night. is there something silly I'm just not seeing?
Originally posted by wormwoodh5 is a move I proposed for white, not black.
that whas my gut reaction was too, but I don't see how ...h5 does anything? h4 and black's in zugzswang, isn't he? his king can't go to help, or queenside falls, and he can't move g- nor c-pawn.
I mean I still haven't calculated anything, I'm just looking at the squares white controls and the fact the 3 kingside pawns kill the 2 unless black king helps.
didn't sleep much last night. is there something silly I'm just not seeing?
The other option that nimzo and I whispered about is also good but its good because of h5.
and wormwood, with the ...h5 idea (which I suppose is nimzo's idea)
Q
28 Dec 11
Originally posted by PhySiQI believe nimzo5 was talking about this h5
h5 is a move I proposed for white, not black.
[pgn][SetUp "1"][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"] 1. h5 {and now what? Black doesn't want to play Kf5} h6 {bxc4 Kxc4 is perhaps worse} 2. cxb5 Kxd5 3. Kd3 {f4 draws to Ke4 and g4 is ok because Ke5 and the same Kc4 promotes before black} Ke5 4. Kc4 {white wins the race}[/pgn]
The other op ...[text shortened]... 6 {opening up b5 for the king}cxb6 3. Kc4 {same as above - white wins} [/pgn]
Q
Originally posted by tomtom232Aha! Good eye tomtom...you may be right - in which case I think nimzo is wrong about it winning for white. (It may indeed be if the motorbox can figure it out). For us plunkers, I say this is a draw!
I believe nimzo5 was talking about this h5
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1.Kd3 bxc4 2.Kxc4 h5[/pgn]
Well that Kd3 nonsense is ugly. But there is a pretty way to still get a queen for white. I'd say its drawing...but here is the rub
Q
28 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by PhySiQactually no need for a motorbox... this position is all about wasting tempi.
Aha! Good eye tomtom...you may be right - in which case I think nimzo is wrong about it winning for white. (It may indeed be if the motorbox can figure it out). For us plunkers, I say this is a draw!
Well that Kd3 nonsense is ugly. But there is a pretty way to still get a queen for white. I'd say its drawing...but here is the rub
[pgn][SetUp "1"][FEN " tempt!} Kxf4 6. g6 {although White queens first...-I think its probably a draw!}[/pgn]
Q
Originally posted by tomtom232
actually no need for a motorbox... this position is all about wasting tempi.
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]1.Kd3 bxc4+ 2.Kxc4 h5 3.b5 {trying to make the black king move like in the other variations} g6 {only move left} 4.Kb4 {! sacrificing a pawn now if the king takes he is not able to move to f6} Kxd5 5.g4 {this works now} one who would settle on 1.Kd3 as their final answer would be able to find all this OTB}[/pgn]
Q
28 Dec 11
Originally posted by PhySiQI think just 4.hxg5 and now black has only four legal moves... three of which: ...c6, ...c5 and h4 are horrible. That leaves only 4... Kf5 which black has been trying to avoid.
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]1. Kd3 bxc4+ 2. Kxc4 h5 3. b5 g6 4. Kb4 Kxd5 5. g4 Kd4 6. gxh5 gxh5 7. Kxa4
d5 [/pgn]
Q
4... Kf5 4.f4 Kg6 {Kg4 and the pawn promotes too soon} 5.Kb4 and its a case of a fox in a chicken coup (a la Silman's Complete Endgame Course)
28 Dec 11
2 edits
Originally posted by PhySiQ
Aha! Good eye tomtom...you may be right - in which case I think nimzo is wrong about it winning for white. (It may indeed be if the motorbox can figure it out). For us plunkers, I say this is a draw!
Well that Kd3 nonsense is ugly. But there is a pretty way to still get a queen for white. I'd say its drawing...but here is the rub
[pgn][SetUp "1"][FEN " tempt!} Kxf4 6. g6 {although White queens first...-I think its probably a draw!}[/pgn]
Q
White should win this- I like 3. b5 here, paralyzing the black queenside. The original position is so bad for black that multiple lines win, so it's almost a matter of taste.
The idea of b5 here is why I would also prefer cxb5 in the initial position- black's queenside and center pawns are effectively frozen, and white still has no kingside pawn weaknesses or entry points to defend.
It's a little counterintuitive, but losing the white e4 pawn gives the white king more flexibility to maneuver in the center, as black could easily end up in zugzwang in this position.
h5 and Kd3 both seem fine- I suspect that probably h5 is simply an improved version of Kd3, with Kd3 being the logical follow up.
In spite of the groans this will elicit, Colle players would convert this ending in a blitz game, I suspect.