28 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Paul LeggettI believe I could convert the original position in blitz against perfect play... but if I started with the position after 1.Kd3 bxc4 2.Kxc4 h5 I'd probably draw because I wouldn't have found the correct way to sac the pawn in time pressure... but I believe most involved in this thread saw quickly the possibilities of a pawn sac or trade of the e4 pawn.
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1.Kd3 bxc4 2.Kxc4 h5[/pgn]
White should win this- I like 3. b5 here, paralyzing the black kingside. The original position is so bad for black that multiple lines win, so it's almost a matter of taste.
The idea of b5 here is why I would also prefer cxb5 in the initial position- black's q roans this will elicit, Colle players would convert this ending in a blitz game, I suspect.
28 Dec 11
Originally posted by Paul LeggettKill me. Damn Colle.
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1.Kd3 bxc4 2.Kxc4 h5[/pgn]
White should win this- I like 3. b5 here, paralyzing the black kingside. The original position is so bad for black that multiple lines win, so it's almost a matter of taste.
The idea of b5 here is why I would also prefer cxb5 in the initial position- black's q ...[text shortened]... roans this will elicit, Colle players would convert this ending in a blitz game, I suspect.
Originally posted by tomtom232Time to drop the Nuke on all of the above propositions. Notice tomtom your 4. hxg5 move - wasn't at all possible in my previously proposed line...so I'm not sure where you were going with that one...
[pgn][FEN "8/2p3pp/3p4/1p1Pk3/pPP4P/P1K2PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1"]1.Kd3 bxc4+ 2.Kxc4 h5 3.b5 g6 4.Kd3 {aha! my original idea on this endgame to get control of e5 now works beautifully} Kxd5 5.f4 {!} Ke6 6.Kc4 {now after this I believe white should win}[/pgn]
Your proposed line 5 f4 which you posted as f4{!} draws, if not loses to Kc5.
However, playing Kd3 after g6 does change things...and it makes a few pretty things... g4! (thats a real {!} moment!). Black can't try the dubious g5 anymore because blacks king on d5 is now too far away to stop the promotion.
I do agree with wormwood that black is in zuggers (if we agree that zuggers here means black position gets worse with either move...but is it losing? I think thats a question unanswered!) - after Kd3 black has to choose between d5 and f5...both of which feel fatal... I think the fastest win is still 1. h5 and 1. cxb5 2.h5 (same idea)
but....
The lesson isn't done!
Now white may be able to win this for a few different reasons! But I don't think we need to get into the Q+3P vs Q+2P (that within a few good moves turns into Q+2P vs Q+1P in favor of white) this time. I highly recommend h5.
P.S --- How many could spot Kg3 over a board? and how would you react if it happened to be played against you?
Q
28 Dec 11
Originally posted by PhySiQIt's a draw - why work on such?
Time to drop the Nuke on all of the above propositions. Notice tomtom your 4. hxg5 move - wasn't at all possible in my previously proposed line...so I'm not sure where you were going with that one...
Your proposed line 5 f4 which you posted as f4{!} draws, if not loses to Kc5.
However, playing Kd3 after g6 does change things...and it ma ...[text shortened]... over a board? and how would you react if it happened to be played against you?
Q
-m.
Originally posted by PhySiQIn the given line, white still should win in a straightforward manner after Qg7+ and Qxc7- but I would still play on as black because blunders happen! Some people relish these positions, while others agonize over them.
Time to drop the Nuke on all of the above propositions. Notice tomtom your 4. hxg5 move - wasn't at all possible in my previously proposed line...so I'm not sure where you were going with that one...
Your proposed line 5 f4 which you posted as f4{!} draws, if not loses to Kc5.
However, playing Kd3 after g6 does change things...and it ma over a board? and how would you react if it happened to be played against you?
Q
In this line 3. g4 is rather better than 3. b5. If the black king goes to f4 (a bad move, but superficially appealing) then 4. gxh5 followed by the white king going to b5-c6-c7 and then the b-pawn queens in 4 moves. It takes far more moves for black to do anything on the kingside, so he's just lost. Instead black needs to play his kingside pawns in much the same manner as above (good technique there), but white's task after the queens arrive is easier.
Kd3 is not as efficient as cxb4 or h5, but it still wins handily, I think.
I should add that I used to lose queen endings very regularly, until I learned that it is not the quantity of pawns that is important, but rather which side has the most advanced passed pawn. The "nuke" reference is an apt one, as queen and pawn endings are nuclear battlefields, where the number of troops and small arms tactics are almost meaningless, and position is everything.
28 Dec 11
4 edits
Originally posted by Paul LeggettI had made a reply to this move back a page. I suppose I needed to go all the way through it so you'd see that both queen. So since I now know you're not looking hard enough, or setting it up on a board of your own... (You should be lashed 30 times you scaliwags!)
In this line 3. g4 is far better than 3. b5. If the black king goes to f4 then 4. gxh5 followed by the white king going to b5-c6-c7 and then the b-pawn queens in 4 moves. It takes far more moves for black to do anything on the kingside, so he's just lost.
Kd3 is not as efficient as cxb4 or h5, but it still wins handily, I think.
Here we go!
I'll show you that Black also queens. after 3. g4 ....
and here I think black draws much easier than in the former variant. White doesn't dare touch the c7 pawn without a king move first... allowing black to begin the storm of checks.
Q
28 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by PhySiQIn the final position, white should still win after Kb5. I'm not sure white's moves are the best getting to this point, but it's probably moot, as white has an extra passed pawn, black's king is out of position and relatively more exposed, and white's king is in a better position to avoid checks. I think this is an improvement for white compared to what I had.
I had made a reply to this move back a page. I suppose I needed to go all the way through it so you'd see that both queen. So since I now know you're not looking hard enough, or setting it up on a board of your own... (You should be lashed 30 times you scaliwags!)
[b]Here we go!
I'll show you that Black also queens. after 3. g4 ....
[pgn][FE the c7 pawn without a king move first... allowing black to begin the storm of checks.
Q[/b]
We should plug this into a box.
28 Dec 11
Originally posted by nimzo5This is all immaterial from my perspective. If white plays h5 then any move black does leads to a weakening of black's position. It's not completely clear cut, but I would go so far as to say I would fancy my chances against most opponents in that position. Does that count as zugswang? 😉
I stopped my original analysis after Kb5 as my hunch is that White is playing for a win. To prove it though would require more time than I can afford on the question or plugging it into a box with endgame tablebases.
29 Dec 11
Originally posted by morgskih5 is the answer. I don't have a box - but when I studied this endgame long ago, it was the "winning" line that was to be found. I still cling to that study as the truth. Perhaps the bastard computers have found different.
This is all immaterial from my perspective. If white plays h5 then any move black does leads to a weakening of black's position. It's not completely clear cut, but I would go so far as to say I would fancy my chances against most opponents in that position. Does that count as zugswang? 😉
I won't be had by this computer generation. Those blood pumping beings on the other side of the board are rarely of form that they can call computerish moves to their games.
Q
29 Dec 11
2 edits
Originally posted by PhySiQDon't you think it would be more appropriate to say "h5 is an answer, and a good one?" instead?
h5 is the answer. I don't have a box - but when I studied this endgame long ago, it was the "winning" line that was to be found. I still cling to that study as the truth. Perhaps the bastard computers have found different.
I won't be had by this computer generation. Those blood pumping beings on the other side of the board are rarely of form that they can call computerish moves to their games.
Q
No one disuptes that it is a good move. It's just not the only move that wins, and there is a good chance that it is not the best (I personally think TomTom's cxc4 move is the strongest), but a win is a win, and all wins are 1 point on the crosstable, no matter how efficient or inefficient, or pretty or ugly they are.
I'm not sure why you would want to cling to any one study as "the truth". I could be reading you wrong, but it seems as though you have some emotional attachment to the move, or that you have some strong and pleasant memories associated with it.
I like to be open-minded, and I relish learning new ideas and seeing new ways to approach the game. I don't think I have ever had a chess position without a forcing tactical sequence where I thought my answer was the only and irrefutable truth, and that there would never be anything better, but who knows what the future may hold.
All that said, the whole point of playing is to have fun and enjoy the endeavor, so if it works for you, that's all that really matters.