Tom Tom, admitted on another thread to using that old trick about
making an opening move against player A.
Waiting for player A to move then making that move against player B.
Waiting for B's reply than playing it against player A
(are you following this?)
So infact player's A & B are playing each other, Tom Tom was the go between.
In this scenario Tom Tom can either win one and lose one or both games are drawn.
A post later Tom Tom was rebuked and it stated this action was
akin to using an engine.
1st. of all this was a harmless piece of fun. A joke.
2nd. I cannot see anything against in TOS. Infact one could say
the actual wording allows it saying you can make moves that have
already been played humans.
What do you think?
Was Tom Tom Wrong? is this the same as using an engine?
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It could be inferred that because the game is not completed, it is not a historical game. With that reasoning it could be further inferred that 3rd party assistance was involved, which is against the TOS.
In this case, if you're just copying moves then a time log would demonstrate that. If you're not making your own moves but just copying them then it could be viewed as 3rd party assistance.
It's just opinion, of course, but doesn't it seem reasonable that possible violations to the TOS need to consider the spirit of the TOS? The TOS are trying to have players play their games on their own. That's not 100% possible but that's the spirit of the TOS. It's an interesting question for the site admins.
This is the same as using a database and this has been part of the reason that I've argued against databases or opening books. You aren't playing the game. You are playing either someone else's version of the game or (with opening books) you are playing the collective chess knowledge's game (the hivemind Chess, if you will)
But under our rules, there are no problems to this.
Originally posted by greenpawn34Was Tom Tom Wrong?
Tom Tom, admitted on another thread to using that old trick about
making an opening move against player A.
Waiting for player A to move then making that move against player B.
Waiting for B's reply than playing it against player A
(are you following this?)
So infact player's A & B are playing each other, Tom Tom was the go between.
In this sc ...[text shortened]... played humans.
What do you think?
Was Tom Tom Wrong? is this the same as using an engine?
Yes.
is this the same as using an engine?
No. It is the same as having outside human assistance.
Imagine if a low-rated player in a big, single-round round-robin tourney did that with every game in the tourney. He would be virtually guaranteed a 50% score and a huge rating increase.
I watched a program on the tv,channel 4 in England with this clever fellow called Derren Brown,who attempted the same feat only I think he was doing it with more than two people,if memory serves it was 9 people.The people involved were Im's and Gm's from the England circuit's,Chris Ward et-al,I think playing chess like that requires alot more effort than just sitting down and playing the game normally here is the link ; http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0
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Originally posted by greenpawn34This has come up several times over the years. For instance, here is a thread from 2007 Thread 73118
Tom Tom, admitted on another thread to using that old trick about
making an opening move against player A.
Waiting for player A to move then making that move against player B.
Waiting for B's reply than playing it against player A
(are you following this?)
So infact player's A & B are playing each other, Tom Tom was the go between.
In this sc ...[text shortened]... played humans.
What do you think?
Was Tom Tom Wrong? is this the same as using an engine?
And here's a thread from 2006 Thread 37655.
As others have said, I think the issue is covered in the TOS, section 3(b) "While a game is in progress you may not refer to chess engines, chess computers or be assisted by a third party."
One of the ex-game mods has posted opinions about this:
Gatecrasher (posting in 2006) :"My own interpretation is that it is a violation of the TOS to play one player off against another.
It's consulting with a third party.
It differs from consulting a database, because the reference game has not been completed yet. Reference material used during a game should be in existance prior to the commencement of the game, otherwise it is no different to asking for external advice or consulting an engine, or creating a engine vs engine database that includes your current board position during the course of a game.
That's just an opinion. But I don't think anyone could or should defend such a "middle-man" activity. It's a novel way of cheating, but in my book, it is clearly cheating.
Using this method, anyone playing 2 strong players is vitually guaranteed a win or 2 draws, and of course, a nice boost for their rating."
Tomtom has admitted using the trick to beat higher rated players in tournaments, increasing both his tournment score and his rating. At the very least this is unethical beheviour. I believe it's cheating.
Originally posted by greenpawn34he's banned right?
Tom Tom, admitted on another thread to using that old trick about
making an opening move against player A.
Waiting for player A to move then making that move against player B.
Waiting for B's reply than playing it against player A
(are you following this?)
So infact player's A & B are playing each other, Tom Tom was the go between.
In this sc ...[text shortened]... played humans.
What do you think?
Was Tom Tom Wrong? is this the same as using an engine?
Originally posted by EmLaskerThe only Tomtom I see in player search is Tomtom232 rated about 1500, is that the tomtom you are talking about? If so, he is not banned.
he's banned right?
I should amend that, he is only one of two players not of a prov rating, the other one is around 900.
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Originally posted by sonhouseYes, it was tomtom232. He made his admission in Thread 101557 on page 6, responding to a post by greenpawn34.
The only Tomtom I see in player search is Tomtom232 rated about 1500, is that the tomtom you are talking about? If so, he is not banned.
I should amend that, he is only one of two players not of a prov rating, the other one is around 900.
Originally posted by David TebbSince this is a recurring topic, perhaps it might be a good idea to include this in the FAQ.
Yes, it was tomtom232. He made his admission in Thread 101557 on page 6, responding to a post by greenpawn34.
Originally posted by PalynkaCall it the anti Tom Tom rule.
Since this is a recurring topic, perhaps it might be a good idea to include this in the FAQ.
T.T. played this prank (and that's all it was - a joke) on another site - not here.
The Situation is covered on another site:
"It's strictly forbidden to play simultaneously the same game with black on a board
and white on the other, against two different players or the same one,
playing black moves like the opponent in the game with white and
playing white moves like the opponent in the game with black."
Originally posted by greenpawn34What if someone does this at two different sites? Should the chess-sites cooperate to discover this?
Call it the anti Tom Tom rule.
T.T. played this prank (and that's all it was - a joke) on another site - not here.
The Situation is covered on another site:
"It's strictly forbidden to play simultaneously the same game with black on a board
and white on the other, against two different players or the same one,
playing black moves like the opp ...[text shortened]... in the game with white and
playing white moves like the opponent in the game with black."