As I have promised, here is annotation of my thematic Kings gambit game with cmsMaster.
cmsMaster - Korch
RHP game
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5
Not pretending to refute this gambit, but getting comfortable position.
2…exf4 or 2…d5 are the most principal responses against Kings gambit, but personally I like 2…Bc5 more. In my opinion this move is strongly underrated.
3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3
Another possible (and sharper) line is 4.c3
4….Nf6!
After 4…Nc6 white could get better play with 5.Bb5!
5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 Bg4
One of the many possible black moves in this position, which I think the best for black. Other solid response is 6…a6 which avoids exchange of black squared bishop which is possible after 7.Na4, but in my opinion strength of this bishop in these lines is strongly overrated..
7.Na4
Old move 7.h3 is playable too, but after 7…Bxf3 8.Qxf3 exf4 9.Bxf4 Ne5 black is forcing exchange one of the white bishops and getting at least equal play.
7…Bb6
Alekhine thought this move as best for black and I can completely agree with him.
8.Nxb6 axb6 9.0-0 0-0 10.c3 exf4
The same plan as if white would play 7.h3. In this position this plan is working well too.
11.Bxf4 Ne5 12.Bxe5
If 12.Bb3 then 12…Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Be6 with good position. For example on 14.Bc2 black can play 14…Nh5! with idea of Qh4. After 14.Bg5? h6 15.Bh4 (15.Bxf6 Qxf6 also gives black better play) black will get advantage after paradox 15….Ra5! (a-file!)
12…dxe5 13.Qe1
After 13.h3 Bxf3 14.Qxf3 black can play 14…Qd6 with equal position.
13…Qd6
On 14.Qg3 planning 14…b5 15.Bb3 (15.Bxb5?? Qc5+) Qxd3 16.Qxe5 (16.Nxe5? Qxg3 17.hxg3 Be6 with large (maybe decisive) advantage in endgame) and black can choose between draw after 16….Qe3+ 17.Kh1 Nxe4 18.Rae1 Nf2+ or play for win with 16…c6 after which Rybka rates this complicated position as about equal, but in my opinion white need play to play more accurate. Other possibility is 14.a4.
14.d4?
This pseydoactive move is beginning of all problems of white.
14….Bxf3 15.Rxf3 exd4! 16.e5
According to Rybka other alternative was 16.Rd1 (which I did not see during the game expecting only 16.e5), but after 16…b5! Black is better. For example 17.e5 Qb6 18.exf6 dxc4 19.cxd4 (19.Rxd4 Rfe8 with advantage) Qxb2! 20.Rf2 (20.Qg3 g6 21.Rf2 [21.Qh4? Rxa2! -+] Qb6 22.Qh4 Kh8 23.Qh6 [23.Rf3 Ra5!] Rg8 with following g5! offbeating attack and keeping extra pawn ) Qb6 21.fxg7 Kxg7! and white have no enough compensation for their pawn.
16…Qc5 17.Qf2?
Another mistake, which leads to rook endgame with extra pawn for black.
Better was 17.exf6 but anyway – after 17…dxc3+ 18.Kh1 (not 18.Qf2 cxb2! -+)
Qxc4 19.Rxc3 (Not 19.fxg7 which leads to lost endgame after 19…Rfe8 20.Qxc3 Qxc3 and Rxa2!) Qf4 20.fxg7 Rfe8 with advantage for black who will capture g7 in future and will have extra pawn then.
17….Ng4! 18.Qxd4 Nxe5 19.Rf4 Qxd4+ 20.Rxd4 c5!
Taking in control d4
21.Re4 Nxc4 22.Rxc4 Rfd8
According to Rybka 22….Rfe8 is not bad too, but I planned to put my rook in 2nd horizontal, which wouldn’t be possible after 22….Rfe8 23.Kf1.
23.Re4 Rd2 24.Re7 Rxb2 25.Rd1
After 25.Rxb7 g6 26.a4 (otherwise black will take on a2) Re8 (with doubling rooks on 2nd horizontal in next move) black is wins easily.
25…g6 26.Rdd7?
Making my task simpler. After 26.Rf1 Raxa2 27.Rfxf7 Ra1+ (27….Rxg2+ 28.Kh1 Rxa2+ 29.Kg1 Rag2+ 30.Kf1 and black have problems to realize their advantage) 28.Rf1 Rxf1+ 29.Kxf1 b5 30.Rxb7 b4 31.cxb4 cxb4 black should win, but it won`t be so easy as in game.
26….Rxb1+ 27.Kf2 Rxa2+ 28.Kg3
If 28.Kf3 then28... Rf1+
28….Rg1 29.Rxf7??
Last mistake but white is losing anyway. For example 29.Rxb7 Raxg2+ 30.Kh3 (30.Kf3 Rxh2) Rc2 and white cant take on f7 due mate - 31.Rxf7+ Rxc3+ 32.Kh4 g5+ 33.Kh5 Rh3#
29…..Rgxg2+ White resigned
After 30.Kh3 ( 30.Kf3 Rgf2+) Rxh2+ 31.Kg3 Rag2+ 32.Kf3 Rf2+ 33.Kg2 Rxf7 there would be elementary winning endgame for black.
Just a comment on the opening..
Isn't usually 4. c3 required if white wants an advantage here? Forgive my ignorance, I do not play these openings, but it is quite interesting anyway each time anyone speaks about the King's Gambit.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Bxd2+
8. Nbxd2
PS. Interesting game and comments.
Originally posted by GolubAfter 1.e4 e5 2.f5 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3 instead of more popular 4...Nf6, I prefer 4...Bb6 which isnt worse choice, and I have good practic results in OTB because white is usually prepared against 4...Nf6.
Just a comment on the opening..
Isn't usually 4. c3 required if white wants an advantage here? Forgive my ignorance, I do not play these openings, but it is quite interesting anyway each time anyone speaks about the King's Gambit.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Bxd2+
8. Nbxd2
[fen]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/8/3PPP2/5N2/PP1N2PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8[/fen]
PS. Interesting game and comments.
I find 17. Qf2? to be the interesting move. I agree with your comment that exf6 is better, but also in some ways more obvious, the difficulty is that white has to give the piece back straightaway. I suspect that the reason for the error is that it "obviously" wins a piece but then loses it again with trouble in the pawn structure, so your opponent dismissed the "obvious" move and went for something else without investigating 17. exf6 properly. I've had things like that happen, usually in games against lower rated players (ie < 1600), where my opponent dismissed what, at least to me, seemed obvious and strong, in favour of some other line which just didn't work.
Originally posted by Golubisn't white supposed to play knight to c3, and eventually to a4, getting rid of the bishop, and abling the castle?
Just a comment on the opening..
Isn't usually 4. c3 required if white wants an advantage here? Forgive my ignorance, I do not play these openings, but it is quite interesting anyway each time anyone speaks about the King's Gambit.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Bxd2+
8. Nbxd2
[fen]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/8/3PPP2/5N2/PP1N2PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8[/fen]
PS. Interesting game and comments.
that's just what i play as white in the classical declined variation
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI analyzed both moves, in the end decided I had good chances to draw with 17.Qf2 in a Rook + Pawn endgame, whereas I was getting confused in the complications with exf6 - even Korch thought I was lost after exf6.
I find 17. Qf2? to be the interesting move. I agree with your comment that exf6 is better, but also in some ways more obvious, the difficulty is that white has to give the piece back straightaway. I suspect that the reason for the error is that it "obviously" wins a piece but then loses it again with trouble in the pawn structure, so your opponent dism ast to me, seemed obvious and strong, in favour of some other line which just didn't work.
Message Log:
17 White I looked at so many variations for this move...I really think this is best for white - at least material wise, but I was really interested with variations after exf6 immediately allowing the discovered check.
17 Black If you took on f6 then after bxc3+ your position was hopeless. At least I think so.
18 White Hm, maybe, I analyzed potential attacks I might have down the g file, but it seemed everytime that you had enough defensive resources.
20 Black I think I got endgame with pawn more. so d4 wasnt good idea
21 White Was a DB idea - I'm not sure what I messed up though, the endgame is still somewhat even, but I'm playing more for draw now.
21 Black I have extra pawn - so I`m sure that you can`t get more than draw. Also dont forget that not all moves in DB are good.
22 White I know, I analyzed the move before I played it and thought I had decent chances, but I missed something I guess. Anyhow, with rook endgame I might have ok chance for draw with accurate play.
24 White I'm pretty sure this position ends up drawing if my analysis is correct.
24 Black Then lets check your analysis in practic
25 White Ok 🙂
28 Black Are you still think that you can make draw? 🙂
29 White g6 killed me - missed it. I had planned Rf1 before Re1 before, and at the last minute changed my mind - I think Rf1 may have actually been better.
29 Black Your last move loses immeadetly - I`ll be able to exchange both rooks now and pawn endgame is elementary winning for me.
Originally posted by GolubI think both are fine. I have rarely faced the Classical Defense, before making my fourth move I recalled a game on PC where I played 4.c3, and had a lot of trouble in some of the complications. I hoped to avoid this, and at the same time see how I felt about the 4.Nc3 lines against Korch.
Just a comment on the opening..
Isn't usually 4. c3 required if white wants an advantage here? Forgive my ignorance, I do not play these openings, but it is quite interesting anyway each time anyone speaks about the King's Gambit.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Bxd2+
8. Nbxd2
[fen]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/8/3PPP2/5N2/PP1N2PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8[/fen]
PS. Interesting game and comments.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI agree, 17.Qf2 isn't so strong - but the position is really very tough for white there. Once again, my thinking was that I may be able to draw in a rook and pawn endgame.
I find 17. Qf2? to be the interesting move. I agree with your comment that exf6 is better, but also in some ways more obvious, the difficulty is that white has to give the piece back straightaway. I suspect that the reason for the error is that it "obviously" wins a piece but then loses it again with trouble in the pawn structure, so your opponent dism ...[text shortened]... ast to me, seemed obvious and strong, in favour of some other line which just didn't work.
Originally posted by rubberjaw30That's what I did in the given game. 4.c3 is another try for white.
isn't white supposed to play knight to c3, and eventually to a4, getting rid of the bishop, and abling the castle?
that's just what i play as white in the classical declined variation
Originally posted by KorchMy personal annotations will be up in a few days.
As I have promised, here is annotation of my thematic Kings gambit game with cmsMaster.
[b]cmsMaster - Korch
RHP game
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5
Not pretending to refute this gambit, but getting comfortable position.
2…exf4 or 2…d5 are the most principal responses against Kings gambit, but personally I like 2…Bc5 more. In my opinion this move is st ...[text shortened]... Rxh2+ 31.Kg3 Rag2+ 32.Kf3 Rf2+ 33.Kg2 Rxf7 there would be elementary winning endgame for black.[/b]
Originally posted by cmsMasterI'm not saying I'd have gotten it right, I was more interested in why you played the one move instead of the other, in the hope of finding some explanation that'll help me avoid such moves - that makes it sound a worse move than it was, but you see what I'm getting at.
I agree, 17.Qf2 isn't so strong - but the position is really very tough for white there. Once again, my thinking was that I may be able to draw in a rook and pawn endgame.