Only Chess
21 Dec 07
22 Dec 07
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kf1 Qe7 7. Nxh8 d5 8. exd5 Bg4 9. Be2 Bxe2+ 10. Qxe2 Nd4 11. Qd3
O-O-O 12. Kxf2 Rf8 13. c3 Ne4+ 14. Ke1 Qh4+ 15. g3 Nxg3 16. cxd4
That was what I found out on fritz but this is about where it's theory runs out.
Or if white plays like an idiot this is what could well happen:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.
Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qe7 8. Kxe4 d5+ 9. Bxd5 Qh4+10. g4 Bxg4 11. Bxc6+ Bd7+ 12. Ke3 Qd4+ 13. Ke2 bxc6 14. Rg1 Bg4+ 15. Rxg4
Qxg4+ 16. Ke1 Qh4+ 17. Kf1 O-O 18. Qe2 Rxf7+ 19. Kg2 Raf8
22 Dec 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchYes, but not recently I think. Beliavsky played it a couple of times in the early 90's and got 1.5/2 against Karpov and Anand, which doesn't sound at all bad. However, Karpov played typically cautiously (obviously surprised by Beliavsky's opening choice), and Anand absolutely murdered Beliavsky in the opening (+-) but then later allowed himself to be swindled. (I published the full game in the previous Traxler thread.) Tellingly Beliavky never tried the Traxler again. Incidentally, in both games white played 5.Bxf7+. It's hard to imagine a strong GM playing anything else.
Shirov, Beliavsky, Ivanov & Wedberg are 4 GM's who have played the Traxler.
22 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern Ladand at the GM level Bxf7+ is probably better for white... meaning that at the 2300 level in CC (where u are Northern Lad) Bxf7+ probably gives white an advantage... but you have to take into account a few things.
Yes, but not recently I think. Beliavsky played it a couple of times in the early 90's and got 1.5/2 against Karpov and Anand, which doesn't sound at all bad. However, Karpov played typically cautiously (obviously surprised by Beliavsky's opening choice), and Anand absolutely murdered Beliavsky in the opening (+-) but then later allowed himself to be sw ...[text shortened]... in both games white played 5.Bxf7+. It's hard to imagine a strong GM playing anything else.
Nxf7 is played way more than Bxf7+ at just about any level... no clue why.
Kxf2 is played way more than Kf1.. again almost unbelievable but I've given this line a lot of practice and it's true...
Bxf7+ still lets black have a better position and some tempo.. something that lots of other gambits really don't do. Making it, in my opinion, worth the pawn.
Ultimately, in my opinion, the chances the Traxler give you are more than worth the pawn you sacrifice. Look at other lines played rather regularly by some GM's .. the Wing gambit, the Kings Gambit and the like.. all gave up a pawn really with no plan of getting it back.. the sacrifice was semi tactical but mostly positional...
you don't have to agree with me 🙂.
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensGMs don't play gambits often at all. If a GM does play the KG it's generally 3.Bc4 anyway.
and at the GM level Bxf7+ is probably better for white... meaning that at the 2300 level in CC (where u are Northern Lad) Bxf7+ probably gives white an advantage... but you have to take into account a few things.
Nxf7 is played way more than Bxf7+ at just about any level... no clue why.
Kxf2 is played way more than Kf1.. again almost unbelievable but I ...[text shortened]... crifice was semi tactical but mostly positional...
you don't have to agree with me 🙂.
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensYou contradict yourself in that thread. You're right when you say that at 2300+ level 5.Bxf7+ gives white the advantage. Then lower down you say black's compensation is worth the pawn. Objectively, it clearly isn't. I've already said in a previous post that at your level the Traxler is perfectly playable. At a higher level, where play is ultra precise, it almost certainly isn't.
and at the GM level Bxf7+ is probably better for white... meaning that at the 2300 level in CC (where u are Northern Lad) Bxf7+ probably gives white an advantage... but you have to take into account a few things.
Nxf7 is played way more than Bxf7+ at just about any level... no clue why.
Kxf2 is played way more than Kf1.. again almost unbelievable but I ...[text shortened]... crifice was semi tactical but mostly positional...
you don't have to agree with me 🙂.
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by cmsMasterI'm not sure that's entirely true. For example, the Marshall (which is a countergambit for black) is all the rage at GM level. And GMs who have played the King's Gambit in recent years like Fedorov and Short have actually mostly played 3.Nf3.
GMs don't play gambits often at all. If a GM does play the KG it's generally 3.Bc4 anyway.
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadYeah, I forgot about the Marshall - but that's really the only gambit I can think of that is played very often at that level. The next is the Benko, but that doesn't seem to get thrown around too often.
I'm not sure that's entirely true. For example, the Marshall (which is a countergambit for black) is all the rage at GM level. And GMs who have played the King's Gambit in recent years like Fedorov and Short have actually mostly played 3.Nf3.
I'd actually have to look up some numbers to see if 3.Nf3 is still more popular than 3.Bc4, but I'm too lazy so I'll just take your word for it. 🙂
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by cmsMasterI play Nf3 because it stops the annoying Qh4+
Yeah, I forgot about the Marshall - but that's really the only gambit I can think of that is played very often at that level. The next is the Benko, but that doesn't seem to get thrown around too often.
I'd actually have to look up some numbers to see if 3.Nf3 is still more popular than 3.Bc4, but I'm too lazy so I'll just take your word for it. 🙂
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by najdorfslayerThat's certainly the accepted theoretical position, but actually I'm not so sure. I do think 3...Qh4+ may be better than its reputation.
After 3...Qh4+ 4.Kf1 is fine for White!
3...Qh4+ is not black's best move.
Black should play 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nf6! (with ideas of playing c6 and d5 hitting the bishop)
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by cmsMasterThe Benko seems quite popular at all but the very highest levels (i.e. Super GMs) for some reason. There are quite a few IMs and 'normal' GMs who regularly play it.
Yeah, I forgot about the Marshall - but that's really the only gambit I can think of that is played very often at that level. The next is the Benko, but that doesn't seem to get thrown around too often.
I'd actually have to look up some numbers to see if 3.Nf3 is still more popular than 3.Bc4, but I'm too lazy so I'll just take your word for it. 🙂
23 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Northern LadBut surely after White play Nf3 Black has to move his queen again. Is placing the king on f1 worth moving the queen twice in the opening?
That's certainly the accepted theoretical position, but actually I'm not so sure. I do think 3...Qh4+ may be better than its reputation.