Originally posted by aginisIt won't be for long.
and how are you planning to win a rook vs rook endgame?
1. Kg5 Re5+ (any other move results in immediate disaster)
2. Kg4 Re4+
3. Kg3 Re3+
4. Kf2! (attacking black's rook and preventing it from attacking white's pawn)
4. ... Re4 (laying a stalemate trap for white)
5. f8=R! (preventing stalemate by 5. f8=Q Rf3+, 6. Qxh4 1/2-1/2)
5. ... Rh4 (blocking checkmate by white's rook on the h-file)
6. Kg3! (attacking black's rook and threatening checkmate by white's rook on the 1st rank)
6. ... Kg2 (moving the rook will either lead to its capture or checkmate)
7. Kxh4 (leaving white with a theoretically won game)
Play might continue: 7. ... Kg2 8. Kg4 Kh2 9. Rf2+ Kh1 (not 9. ... Kg1 10. Kg3 Kh1 11. Rf1# ) 10. Kh3 Kg1 11. Kg3 Kh1 12. Rf1# 1-0
Neat puzzle.
Originally posted by PBE6That could work, except if black knew and chose to, he could bring out the old insufficiant losing material rule which would make it a draw. It's the same with Q+K vs Q+K. I think you're only given 1 move after you promote the pawn to either get an edge in material/have a clear win. Maybe not even that.
It won't be for long.
1. Kg5 Re5+ (any other move results in immediate disaster)
2. Kg4 Re4+
3. Kg3 Re3+
4. Kf2! (attacking black's rook and preventing it from attacking white's pawn)
4. ... Re4 (laying a stalemate trap for white)
5. f8=R! (preventing stalemate by 5. f8=Q Rf3+, 6. Qxh4 1/2-1/2)
5. ... Rh4 (blocking checkmate by white's rook on the ...[text shortened]... not 9. ... Kg1 10. Kg3 Kh1 11. Rf1# ) 10. Kh3 Kg1 11. Kg3 Kh1 12. Rf1# 1-0
Neat puzzle.
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldWhere did you get that from? Anyway, it is nonsense. There is no such rule. And K+Q vs. K+R is a won endgame, with a few exceptions where a stalemate can be forced.
That could work, except if black knew and chose to, he could bring out the old insufficiant losing material rule which would make it a draw. It's the same with Q+K vs Q+K. I think you're only given 1 move after you promote the pawn to either get an edge in material/have a clear win. Maybe not even that.
The solution given is correct.
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldThere is no insufficient losing material rule. You're confusing two USCF rules:
That could work, except if black knew and chose to, he could bring out the old insufficiant losing material rule which would make it a draw. It's the same with Q+K vs Q+K. I think you're only given 1 move after you promote the pawn to either get an edge in material/have a clear win. Maybe not even that.
1) Insufficient Losing Chances. A player may stop the clock, and claim that he has insufficient losing chances. The TD may either a) grant the claim outright, declaring the game a draw, or b) place a digital clock with time delay on the game. If no progress is made, he may rule the game a draw.
Naturally, option 1a) is very unpopular, so 1b) is almost always what actually happens, in the event of an ILC claim.
2) Insufficient mating material. The game is immediately drawn if neither side has enough material to checkmate, even with help from the opponent.
This problem and its solution does not fall under either of these rules. There is at least a Rook on the board at all times, both Kings are exposed, and K/Q v. K/R is a theoretical win for the Q side in most cases (as Mephisto pointed out).
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem1st thought: wtf is this? anyone could have moved...
Here's a problem where a form of 'insufficient material' does come into play.
A. Buchanan
[fen]k7/8/2K5/8/8/8/8/8[/fen]
Who just moved?
This problem relies heavily on FIDE rule A.1.3: If there is no checkmate possible for either side, the game is drawn.
2nd thought: lets look up that complete fide rule first
3rd thought: okay wtf is this?
4th thought: ahhhhhhhh!
okay, in last move a piece must have been taken. that piece must have been a queen, rook or pawn. however if it was a WHITE queen or rook, from which square did the black king take it? -> impossible
so could it have been a pawn that just promoted to queen or rook on a8?
if the pawn was on a7 there's again no possible square for Black king to take on a8 after the promotion, because on b8 it's attacked by the pawn and a7 is occupied by the pawn itself.
if the pawn was on b7 though, i dont see a problem. e.g.:
White: Kc6, b7
Black: Kb8, Ra1
1. Ra8 bxa8=Q 2. Kxa8
As for White, there could have been a Black rook on c6 and White king on b5, d5 or d7 to take Rc6 from there making the game draw. So you can't tell who moved last.
What did I miss? 🙂
Originally posted by Mephisto2However, in a real game, if Black requested the draw before playing KxQ, the referee is obligated to give him one, given the wording of law A.1.3.
May be theoretically true. But if in a real game white's last move was Qa1-a8+, I bet no referee would intervene before black plays KxQ = draw.
Of course, you don't have the issue when black's last move was Qc1-c6+ (for instance) and white replies Kb6xQ.
Your last paragraph is essentially the solution. Black can't have moved last, because the game can't make it all the way to bare Kings if he did. White, however, could have just captured a Q or R that he wasn't forced to capture, so he moved last.
I wonder how many beers Buchanan had, when he came up with this one.
I can imagine it went like this...."Ah okay, today I'm gonna compose a really beautiful middle game position that ends with an amazing pawn mate"....2 beers later...."Oh well, not that easy, lets compose an endgame with bishops mate then".....3 beers later...."Okay, just rook and queens and maybe a few pawns".....3 beers later...."well damit, you stupid pieces, you all go back into the box now. only 2 kings, that makes it simple and I can keep overview"
🙂
Originally posted by crazyblueThe problem was never intended to be a compositional masterpiece. It's only an introductory example of a problem built around FIDE article A.1.3.
I wonder how many beers Buchanan had, when he came up with this one.
I can imagine it went like this...."Ah okay, today I'm gonna compose a really beautiful middle game position that ends with an amazing pawn mate"....2 beers later...."Oh well, not that easy, lets compose an endgame with bishops mate then".....3 beers later...."Okay, just rook and queen ...[text shortened]... ack into the box now. only 2 kings, that makes it simple and I can keep overview"
🙂
Having finished his beer, Buchanan came up with something a bit more complicated.
A. Buchanan
StrateGems 2002
Dead Reckoning (problems involving law A.1.3.)
White to move. What move did Black just play?
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemIsn't "white to move" not in contradiction with A.1.3, according to which law the game is over? Shouldn't it be something like "black made the last move. Which one?" ?
The problem was never intended to be a compositional masterpiece. It's only an introductory example of a problem built around FIDE article A.1.3.
Having finished his beer, Buchanan came up with something a bit more complicated.
A. Buchanan
StrateGems 2002
[fen]Bb1k1b2/bKp1p1p1/1pP1P1P1/1P6/p5P1/P7/8/8[/fen]
[b]Dead Reckoning (problems involving law A.1.3.)
White to move. What move did Black just play?[/b]
ps. a5-a4
Originally posted by Mephisto2"White to move" only indicates that it's White's turn. It doesn't guarantee he can make a legal move.
Isn't "white to move" not in contradiction with A.1.3, according to which law the game is over? Shouldn't it be something like "black made the last move. Which one?" ?
ps. a5-a4
Why not 0...Ke8-d8 as Black's last move?
After thinking about this and playing a game that leads to the position I think I've found a simple answer. Black's last move was KxNd8.
Explanation:
Neither player can win this game, because it's impossible to bring a pawn to the last rank and it's also impossible to checkmate the king with the pieces currently on the board.
Only Pa4 and Kd8 could have moved last, all other pieces are stuck. However the Pa4 could have been only on a5 before. But in that position it would have been draw already.
If the Black king would have moved Kd8 in last move without taking a piece, it would have been draw also. Therefore he must have taken a piece. However if it was a Rook or Queen, it was also draw right after White moved the piece to d8. It can't have been a Bishop either, because a regular Bishop cannot move to d8. Bishop by promotion is also impossible because the Pawn on d7 checks King e8 which gives him only d8 as escaping square. But then Black can't move the Pawn.
So it must have been a knight (coming from f7).
After Nf7-e8....oh well, I just noticed after Ne8 Black is indeed forced to take the Knight, therefore it was draw already and my answer is wrong. 😕
I'll think more about it, this is quite alot of fun 😀
PS: Here is my game in pgn:
[Date "2006.06.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Buchanan"]
[Black "Buchanan"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A00"]
1. a3 Na6 2. b4 Nb8 3. b5 Na6 4. c4 Nb8 5. c5 Na6 6. d4 Nxc5 7. dxc5 d5 8. Qb3 d4 9. Qd1 d3 10. Qb3 d2+ 11. Kd1 dxc1=B+ 12. Kc2 Be3 13. Qa4 Bd4 14. Nc3 Be3 15. Nd5 Bd4 16. Nb6 axb6 17. Qa5 bxa5 18. c6 Ra7 19. Nf3 Ra8 20. Ne5 Ra7 21. Nc4 Ra8 22. Nb6 Bc5 23. Nxa8 Ba7 24. Nb6 Bb8 25. Nxc8 a4 26. Rd1 Qxd1+ 27. Kxd1 f5 28. g4 f4 29. Bh3 Nf6 30. Rg1 Ng8 31. Rg3 fxg3 32. g5 g2 33. Nb6 g1=B 34. f3 Bf2 35. Nd5 Bg1 36. Ne3 Bf2 37. Bc8 h5 38. Ng4 hxg4 39. fxg4 Nh6 40. g6 Nf5 41. Kc2 Bfa7 42. Kd3 Rh3+ 43. Kc4 Rf3 44. Kb4 Rf2 45. Ka5 b6+ 46. Ka6 Nd6 47. h4 Nb7 48. Bxb7 Rf1 49. Ba8 Rf2 50. Kb7 Rf1 51. h5 Rf2 52. h6 Rf1 53. h7 Rf2 54. h8=N Rf1 55. e4 Rf2 56. e5 Kd8 57. e6 Rf7 58. Nxf7+ Ke8 59. Nd8 Kxd8
*
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemIf a5-a4 had been played before, then Ke8-d8, or even Ke8xd8 (in check from queen or rook) would have been a forced only-move to a position which is drawn, and the game would have been over according law A.1.3 BEFORE making that king move. Nothing can be achieved by either player to release the position.
"White to move" only indicates that it's White's turn. It doesn't guarantee he can make a legal move.
Why not 0...Ke8-d8 as Black's last move?
The move a5-a4, however forces a draw from a position which was not drawn yet. The king could have moved instead a few times (back and forth), preceeded by white pawn moves (e-pawn and g-pawn), releasing the position for the black king.