16 Feb 14
Originally posted by humy
Are you just joking here?If there is a [b]correctreligious belief then ….
LOL. To say that is a huge “If” is an understatement! That is just like saying “If there is a correct delusional belief then...”.
There is clearly not such thing as a “correct” religious belief because religious belief is not based rationally on evidence no ...[text shortened]... re beyond help and kill us as an act of mercy like we would kill a rabid dog as an act of mercy.[/b]Evilution is a wrong delusional belief.
17 Feb 14
Originally posted by humy
Are you just joking here?If there is a [b]correctreligious belief then ….
LOL. To say that is a huge “If” is an understatement! That is just like saying “If there is a correct delusional belief then...”.
There is clearly not such thing as a “correct” religious belief because religious belief is not based rationally on evidence no ...[text shortened]... re beyond help and kill us as an act of mercy like we would kill a rabid dog as an act of mercy.[/b]All human societies and groups have a religious system which incorporates an account of their origins, a value system and a proposal for the purpose of life. To arrive at an entirely "Rational" and non magical way of thinking requires quite a sophisticated mind but that was certainly achieved for example by some of the philosophers among the ancient Greeks and then the Romans, especially in the systems known as Epicureanism and Stoicism. This was facilitated - we are told - because the pagan, polytheistic religions were not easy to believe for an educated mind. In modern times a comparable society might be the Japanese, who are surely perfectly aware of the way their religious systems (Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism) have been devised by humans and superimposed over pre-existing animistic religious thinking. They have a pick and mix approach to it all (Shinto does rubbish funerals so they have Buddhist ones instead). But popular culture clings to the old animistic beliefs and that is not different to for example the Irish (and Spanish and other) retention of pagan thinking as an undercurrent to their Christian sophistry.
Magical thinking is part of human nature and appears in every society. It is also a feature of child development. It is a perfectly reasonable way to make sense of a world in the absence of more developed rational options, which will have to be achieved over many generations or by means of education. However, when people start to apply rational thought to their beliefs they do not arrive at atheism. In most societies they arrive instead at a more sophisticated religious system, of which Christianity, Shinto, et all are examples. A history of the Bible shows the Jewish faith developing from a primitive, polytheist religion to a sophisticated monotheism. If you investigate the life and writing of (Saint) Paul of Tarsus you will see the really quite brilliant way he devised a new religion - something that Jesus patently never did nor even attempted. It is absurd to say that it is "irrational" to accept Buddhist teaching for example, when the alternative is something as unsatisfactory as animism or the polytheist system of the Pagans. The philosophical thinking in the traditions of the Hindu systems has played a huge part in the development of our "rational" modern world, for example in the development of mathematics. If Newton is considered the first true scientist, he is also demonstrably one of the last really knowledgeable and committed alchemists - a magician.
Of course, inherent on the more "Rational" and sophisticated religions was the function of social control - for example, the role of the Pharaoh in making the Nile flood every year and indeed the battle for overall power between secular / political power and religious power throughout Egyptian history. In Japanese history there were quite overt and conscious political decisions to develop religious thinking in a form that would facilitate social development and control - for example the decision after WW2 to demote the Emperor from the status of a God. The point in all of this is to see that religious thinking is often extremely "Rational" and sophisticated.
Religion is a highly complex and many faceted aspect of human culture. It is just not tenable to dismiss the topic as a form of stupidity. If intelligent life evolved or evolves on other planets, as it probably has done and will again, then I suspect that religious thinking will be an intrinsic part of their developmental process. I just hope not to encounter a planet where the Aztecs have total control and they visit Earth looking for more sacrificial victims. It happened in Mexico - it could happen again.
18 Feb 14
Originally posted by finneganI would hope that with the yearly increments in scientific knowledge religion would play a smaller and smaller role as evident in the Scandinavian countries.
All human societies and groups have a religious system which incorporates an account of their origins, a value system and a proposal for the purpose of life. To arrive at an entirely "Rational" and non magical way of thinking requires quite a sophisticated mind but that was certainly achieved for example by some of the philosophers among the ancient Greeks ...[text shortened]... visit Earth looking for more sacrificial victims. It happened in Mexico - it could happen again.
As we get more scientifically sophisticated, religion seems to be relegated to smaller and smaller roles in society.
It seems to me religion is one of the last relics of the past mind set that substitutes actual thinking about the world to 'goddidit' kind of dismissive mentality that in the USA right now, is actively fighting the new knowledge gained at real expense in the sciences.
The present fight over the forcing of creationism to be taught as if it were an actual science is just the icing on the putrid cake of religion in the US.
We are supposedly the most advanced society in the world, yet by many indexes we are far behind and a lot of that is due to religion IMHO.
When a good portion of the US don't even know the Earth revolves around the sun you have to ask why and a big portion of that answer has to do with the religious indoctrination inherent in religion, forcing people to discount hundreds of years of scientific progress in the disgusting effort by these ultra religious right wingers to thwart any new knowledge generated by science. The latest for instance is this:
http://phys.org/news/2014-02-evolution-geometries-life-scientists-longstanding.html
Where life scientists have apparently solved a long standing question in evolution, the energy required by various life forms on Earth.
There are many implications of this new work but I can see it being actively thwarted by the ultra religious right wingers in the US despite how it can answer long standing questions in biology.
It is my considered opinion the human race is not served by religion in this day and age, perhaps it held appeal in the past when we know next to nothing about the weather or other forces of nature but now that we are getting a real handle on these forces we can understand them without referring to mystical forces or gods floating about the cosmos.
At least in the USA, religion is thwarting a real resurgence in scientific knowledge and THAT I hate almost above EVERYTHING else.
18 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by finnegan
All human societies and groups have a religious system which incorporates an account of their origins, a value system and a proposal for the purpose of life. To arrive at an entirely "Rational" and non magical way of thinking requires quite a sophisticated mind but that was certainly achieved for example by some of the philosophers among the ancient Greeks ...[text shortened]... visit Earth looking for more sacrificial victims. It happened in Mexico - it could happen again.
Magical thinking is part of human nature and appears in every society.
Yes, believing in magic, such as religion, appears to be “part of human nature” and appears in every society. But that is just an indicator that many humans in all societies are naturally irrational (and in an extremely dangerous way -think of WW2 with the leading Nazis who were all CHRISTIAN including Hitler himself! ). What desperately needs to happen is for humanity to somehow learn to become rational by dumping religion and belief in magic -else we have no future.
19 Feb 14
Originally posted by humyWhat he said.Magical thinking is part of human nature and appears in every society.
Yes, believing in magic, such as religion, appears to be “part of human nature” and appears in every society. But that is just an indicator that many humans in all societies are naturally irrational (and in an extremely dangerous way -think of WW2 with the leading Nazi ...[text shortened]... mehow learn to become rational by dumping religion and belief in magic -else we have no future.