Originally posted by @moonbusBounce your ball and dodge the subject.
I tried to point you in the direction of transubstantiation, the technical term for things changing into other things by divine power. A thousand years of theological literature exists on this subject, written by people with twice your IQ and four times your humility, if you would only listen.
Continue to be an ass.
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Originally posted by @eladarThere is no issue, except the feebleness of your faith.
I have listened to all of you. You are simply too stupid to understand that no one has addressed the issue.
Originally posted by @shallow-blueWhat do you know, another ass.
There is no issue, except the feebleness of your faith.
Originally posted by @eladarI was not suggesting that you listen to any of 'us'. I suggested that you read the scholarly work of theologians who have asked similar questions. There is quite a lot on the topic of miracles.
I have listened to all of you. You are simply too stupid to understand that no one has addressed the issue.
Assumption: Jesus turned water into wine.
Question: would a chemical analysis of the wine alone reveal that the wine had been produced by miracle rather than by conventional fermentation?
Hypothesis 1. The wine contains some supernatural marker, signature, or characteristic identifying it as having been produced by miracle.
Hypothesis 2. The wine contains some naturally occurring element which, however, does not naturally occur during conventional winemaking processes.
Hypothesis 3. The wine is molecule for molecule identical to wine produced by natural fermentation.
Analysis of hypothesis 1. Given that no chemical analysis is likely to reveal the presence (or absence) of any supernatural ingredient, it follows that science would not detect that such wine had been produced by miracle or be able to distinguish it from wine produced by conventional means.
Analysis of hypothesis 2. A chemical analysis would likely reveal the presence of the unusual element or ingredients, but not their miraculous origin. A naturally occurring element, although not usually present in conventionally produced wine, could have been introduced to the wine in question in other ways which do not require or indicate that a miracle happened. For example, by leaching from the container.
Analysis of hypothesis 3. If the wine made by Jesus is molecule for molecule identical to conventionally produced wine, then scientific analysis of the wine will not distinguish it from conventionally produced wine or indicate a miraculous origin for the wine in question.
Conclusion: on all 3 hypotheses, science will not detect a miraculous origin for the wine in question by analysing the wine alone.
The same considerations apply to consecrated wine and unconsecrated wine. It is not to be expected that a chemical analysis of two samples taken from the same bottle would reveal any difference between them which would indicate that one was consecrated and the other not.
Written by Leon Rosselson:-
The Romans were the masters
When Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee
They ruled with an iron hand
The poor were sick with hunger
And the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels, whipped and crucified
Hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer -
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Said, "Love your enemies"
But Judas was a Zealot and he
Wanted to be free
"Resist", he said, "the Romans' tyranny"
So stand up, stand up for Judas
And the cause that Judas served
It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word
Now Jesus was a conjuror,
Miracles were his game
He fed the hungry thousands
And they glorified his name
He cured the lame and leper
He calmed the wind and the weather
And the wretched flocked to touch him
So their troubles would be taken
And Jesus knew the answer -
"All you who labour, all you who suffer
Only believe in me"
But Judas sought a world where no-one
Starved or begged for bread
"The poor are always with us", Jesus said
Now Jesus sowed division
Where none had been before
Not the slave against the master
But the poor against the poor
Caused son to rise up against father
And brother to fight against brother
For "He that is not with me
Is against me" was his teaching
Said Jesus, "I am the answer
You unbelievers shall burn forever
Shall die in your sins"
"Not sheep or goats" said Judas but
"Together we may dare
Shake off the chains of tyranny we share"
Jesus stood upon the mountain
With a distance in his eyes
"I am the Way, the Life" he cried
"The Light that never dies
So renounce all earthly treasures
And pray to your heavenly father"
And he pacified the hopeless
With the hope of life eternal
Said Jesus, "I am the answer
And you who hunger only remember
Your reward's in heaven"
So Jesus preached the other world
But Judas wanted this
And he betrayed his master with a kiss
By sword and gun and crucifix
Christ's gospel has been spread
And two thousand cruel years have shown
The way that Jesus led
The heretics burned and tortured
And the butchering bloody Crusaders
The bombs and rockets sanctified
That rain down death from heaven
They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All unbelievers must be believers
Or else be broken
"So place no trust in saviours"
Judas said, "for everyone
Must be to his or her own self a sun"
Originally posted by @vendaYou do realize this is a science forum?
Written by Leon Rosselson:-
The Romans were the masters
When Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee
They ruled with an iron hand
The poor were sick with hunger
And the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels, whipped and crucified
Hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer -
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Said, "Love your ...[text shortened]... o place no trust in saviours"
Judas said, "for everyone
Must be to his or her own self a sun"
Originally posted by @vendaActually, shockingly, pertinent to the conversation. The end...
Written by Leon Rosselson:-
The Romans were the masters
When Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee
They ruled with an iron hand
The poor were sick with hunger
And the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels, whipped and crucified
Hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer -
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Said, "Love your ...[text shortened]... o place no trust in saviours"
Judas said, "for everyone
Must be to his or her own self a sun"
"They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All unbelievers must be believers
Or else be broken
"So place no trust in saviours"
There is no method to this madness. Why can't believers just be faithful? The mentality of forced belief is why many Christians view science as such a threat.
Originally posted by @moonbusSo you are saying under one condition science could not determine the difference.
Assumption: Jesus turned water into wine.
Question: would a chemical analysis of the wine alone reveal that the wine had been produced by miracle rather than by conventional fermentation?
Hypothesis 1. The wine contains some supernatural marker, signature, or characteristic identifying it as having been produced by miracle.
Hypothesis 2. The wine c ...[text shortened]... eal any difference between them which would indicate that one was consecrated and the other not.
Originally posted by @eladarMy question to you is why do you think your question is pertinent ? What is your goal with this line of questioning?
So you are saying under one condition science could not determine the difference.
Originally posted by @sonhouseIt has to do with what science can yell us and what it cannot.
My question to you is why do you think your question is pertinent ? What is your goal with this line of questioning?
It has to do with truth and the limits at which we can know things.
Given assumptions we can then say something had to happen. Yet faulty assumptions lead to faulty conclusions.
This is why it is important to question and not simply believe what you are told.