14 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarThat's *so* clever! And then, if the conjecture that it's hyperdimensional membranes is ever verified, and some conjectures are made as to where those came from, then you can say, "Ah, but where did *those* come from?" You are clearly a very inquisitive soul.
Where did the hyperdimentional membranes come from?
But I am a bit curious as to why you feel this is appropriate for a science forum? Have you no sense of decency?
14 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarI don't know. I don't have to know. It's a big question, and it's a good question, but I can live a good life without *ever* knowing where the Big Bang came from, or how non-living matter first became "life," or how exactly ice crystals grow in clouds (although that last one would be rather helpful for me to know in my life--hey, maybe God did it!...how can I put that in a model?).
I just want to know where you think it came from. Can you explain where it all began?
That's the wonderful thing about nature--there's all kinds of stuff we don't know! Nature is full of mysteries! And, if you're the sort of person who likes to answer those kinds of questions, there's this awesome method that does a great job of doing that!
Has anyone else had the experience of being accused of being too self-assured and arrogant for accepting scientific results rather than religious assertions made by people who are completely convinced they know exactly what the answers are based on hallucinations whose thematic content derives from ancient fairy tales?
And, again, why are you posting in the SCIENCE forum?
14 Oct 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI hate to sound like a god-of-the-gaps-theist, but where did the singularity come from? (I really am looking for the scientific conjecture!) It's too bad I had to use the word "before" (if I did...I was trying to avoid that word and don't have the post in front of me) since if the Big Bang is the beginning of time, to talk about what happened before is like asking what is south of the South Pole.
There are various hypotheses, including:
1. That there is no before, ie the big bang started from a singularity that was the beginning of time. Note that this does not entirely rule out the possibility of other universes or dimensions but thats another story. In this scenario, "before the Big Bang" has no meaning.
2. There was no singularity, and the un ...[text shortened]... ts or predictions relating to the underlying concept that space has a maximum energy capacity.
Bouncing Universe...interesting. How hard is that to test, and how far are astronomers from having a good idea? I thought the question about whether or not there is going to be a Big Crunch was currently leaning towards having an answer of "No."
I'll have to look up this Sci Am article everyone's talking about. I imagine it's about my speed...I sure can't read the astrophysics! (But wading through some articles on the Alcubierre Warp Drive was kind of fun a few years ago.. )
14 Oct 08
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Where did God come from? God has always been. God is not part of this or any universe, therefore does not follow the rules. Any explanation of how this universe came into existance short of God, must use the rules that govern the universe. The rules of this universe is that everything has a beginning and everything is the result of something.
This of couse does not prove that the God of the Bible is the God that I describe. It just goes to demonstrate how the belief in a being who is outside of and beyond our existance is the only logical explanation of how this universe came into existance.
A source within the system can never explain how the system came into existance. The only source for the system must be something outside the system that does not follow the rules within the system.
14 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarWould you accept that the hyperdimentional membranes come from the same place and time from where god came?
Where did God come from? God has always been. God is not part of this or any universe, therefore does not follow the rules.
No?
Of corse not, this is the Science Forum.
14 Oct 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasThese membranes are part of the greater system, therefore they must follow the same rules of the system itself. They must have a beginning.
Would you accept that the hyperdimentional membranes come from the same place and time from where god came?
No?
Of corse not, this is the Science Forum.
14 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarWhy can't the Universe have just...happened? Why must there be a creator, specifically a conscious one? If there does turn out to be some principle outside of our Universe that is beyond scientific investigation, why must it be a god? But, really, can't it just have happened, like some Buddhists say?
Where did God come from? God has always been. God is not part of this or any universe, therefore does not follow the rules. Any explanation of how this universe came into existance short of God, must use the rules that govern the universe. The rules of this universe is that everything has a beginning and everything is the result of something.
This of c ...[text shortened]... he system must be something outside the system that does not follow the rules within the system.
The Universe is real, this much I know. God, as far as I can tell, is just a story, or a speculation. (And yes, I have prayed and I have had amazing religious and mystical experiences of God, but it really takes very little investigation into the psychology of altered states of consciousness--or logic, really--to realize those hallucinations cannot be taken as proofs of anything.)
Hmm. I would appreciate this religious discussion NOT being in the science forum, or on the thread I started because I wanted to see if anyone here knew about some cosmological speculations. Do you understand how this isn't science, and how it's kind of rude of you to impose your religion into discussions on science? I would not go to the religion forum and begin posting about the latest advances in meteorology, because that would be ridiculously out of place. Why do you feel it's okay to bring God over here?
14 Oct 08
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Originally posted by EladarBesides, this hypothetical "hyperdimensional membrane" idea that I read about once and was hoping someone in the Science Forum would know something about, is not part of this or any universe, and as it is outside both space and time, it has always been. As far as whether or not it obeys the rules of this Universe, I'm not sure it could meaningfully be said to do that, but we'd have to ask someone who actually knew what they were talking about. If the "rules of this universe is that everything has a beginning and everything is the result of something," then it seems obvious that this hypothetical "hyperdimensional membrane" (or whatever the current thinking is on the "pre"-Big-Bang, scarequotes used to emphasize that pre-Big-Bang is analagous to "south of the South Pole" ) has neither a beginning (since there's no time) nor is necessarily the result of something.
Where did God come from? God has always been. God is not part of this or any universe, therefore does not follow the rules. Any explanation of how this universe came into existance short of God, must use the rules that govern the universe. The rules of this universe is that everything has a beginning and everything is the result of something.
This of c ...[text shortened]... he system must be something outside the system that does not follow the rules within the system.
15 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarAnd god is not?
These membranes are part of the greater system, therefore they must follow the same rules of the system itself. They must have a beginning.
Try to prove this scientifically - this is Science Forum, so you can't use religious arguments here...
15 Oct 08
Originally posted by EladarFalse conclusion. Since you know nothing of the status of extra dimensional membranes if they exist at all, you can certainly say nothing of the attributes of such an entity. It may or may not be part of our system. Without g/God-like knowledge you are just urinating into the turbulence.
These membranes are part of the greater system, therefore they must follow the same rules of the system itself. They must have a beginning.
