09 Aug 10
Originally posted by Conrau KChristmas IS named after Christ though, whereas Easter comes from an Egyptian Goddess Astarte.
Twhitehead is exactly right. Christmas is not, nor has it ever been, the major feast day in the liturgical calendar. Easter Sunday is the supreme feast. I will also point out however that the date of any feast day can be subject to change. Even with Easter, there is a major discrepancy between Western and Eastern Christians with the day of celebration. So t ...[text shortened]... nt about the day of December 25 -- it is not "declared" and it could theoretically be changed.
This suggests that Christmas is more important than Easter.
09 Aug 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadNobody believes that Jesus was born on 25th of december? Ask randomly 10 church going christians and you will have a big surprise....like I did myself.
That is a strawman argument.
As various people have pointed out, nobody believes that Jesus was born on the 25th.
Further, Christmas is not, and never has been 'the headstone of their religious system'.
As far as events go, most Christians put more stock in Easter.
Both events have since gained significant non-Christian trappings from other traditions and beliefs.
And this holiday is not one of the major christian feasts?....common man...is the most important after Eastern.
09 Aug 10
Originally posted by danielnovacoviciWe all know that Jesus wasn't born at dec 25th.
One of the most important christian holiday is 25 december, the supposed day of birth of Jesus Christ .... BUT IS NOT THEN!!!! It was declared by church around 300 BC to coincide with other existing festivities worshiping the sun, more exactly the winter solstice. And from that time...all the christians make a lot of fuss around this "stolen" date.
If he would than the first day of year 1 AD should start the 26th of december, which it of course isn't.
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09 Aug 10
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Originally posted by TheMaster37I don't think anyone is really 100% sure of the origins of the word Easter but it was Sainte Bede of the Northumbrian Monastery of St. Peter that wrote in his "The Ecclesiastical History of the English People" that the word Easter is derived from the Anglo Saxon heathen goddess know as "Eostre" or "Eastre" in West Saxon dialect. The scholar Jacob Grimm speculated that this was related to the Germanic name "Ostara". Here are some comments by Grimm:
Christmas IS named after Christ though, whereas Easter comes from an Egyptian Goddess Astarte.
This suggests that Christmas is more important than Easter.
"Ostara, Eástre seems therefore to have been the divinity of the radiant dawn, of upspringing light, a spectacle that brings joy and blessing, whose meaning could be easily adapted by the resurrection-day of the christian's God. Bonfires were lighted at Easter and according to popular belief of long standing, the moment the sun rises on Easter Sunday morning, he gives three joyful leaps, he dances for joy [...]. Water drawn on the Easter morning is, like that at Christmas, holy and healing [...]; here also heathen notions seems to have grafted themselves on great christian festivals. Maidens clothed in white, who at Easter, at the season of returning spring, show themselves in clefts of the rock and on mountains, are suggestive of the ancient goddess [...].["
I think one thing we can be fairly safe in assuming is that, much like Christmas, the modern day celebration of Easter is a blend of Christianity and heathen folk customs. What else is new?
09 Aug 10
And the world questions why JW's don't celibrate these holidays with pagan origins?
Eph 5:10,11: Make sure of what is acceptable to the Lord and quit sharing with works that belong to the darkness but even reproving them."
1 Cor 6: 14-18. " What sharing does light have with darkness or rightness have with lawlessness?"
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09 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Not me. I understand completely.
And the world questions why JW's don't celibrate these holidays with pagan origins?
Eph 5:10,11: Make sure of what is acceptable to the Lord and quit sharing with works that belong to the darkness but even reproving them."
1 Cor 6: 14-18. " What sharing does light have with darkness or rightness have with lawlessness?"
But I have to ask, you complain about persecution yet am I wrong to assume from your post here that you consider pagan beliefs evil and lawless?
09 Aug 10
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Originally posted by UllrWell if one finds that a holiday or belief or doctrine that one connects to the worship of God, and knowing what god has said in the Bible reguarding those things, then yes could be a wicked thing.
Not me. I understand completely.
But I have to ask, you complain about persecution yet am I wrong to assume from your post here that you consider pagan beliefs evil and lawless?
John 14:30 calls Satan him the "Ruler" of this world.
So if a spiritual teaching, holiday or belief or doctrine seems contrary to the Bible, it might be good to see where it originated. Chances are if it doesn't follow the Bible or contradicts it, it may not be a good thing and a teaching of something that Satan is behind.
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09 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by danielnovacoviciNo they don't actually, but most of the organised groups make something of it. Christians generally don't make as much fuss as all the secular crazies who spend a fortune rushing round the shops spending cash like the apocalypse was just around the corner. It doesn't matter when his birthday was, not to Christians because Christianity has not interest in his birthday and not to non-Christians as they just want to enjoy the season. The Christian calendar is littered with paganism as is much of the established organised channels of the religion, however many followers of Christ care little for the ecumenical trappings including Jesus’ alleged birthday.
One of the most important christian holiday is 25 december, the supposed day of birth of Jesus Christ .... BUT IS NOT THEN!!!! It was declared by church around 300 BC to coincide with other existing festivities worshiping the sun, more exactly the winter solstice. And from that time...all the christians make a lot of fuss around this "stolen" date.
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10 Aug 10
Originally posted by TheMaster37This is typical Anglophile ignorance. The name Christmas may be derived from Christ and the name Easter may be derived from a pagan deity -- but these are not the names of these feasts in other languages. The normative name for Christmas is 'feast of the nativity' (festus nativitatis) and for Easter 'Paschal feast' (Pascha).
Christmas IS named after Christ though, whereas Easter comes from an Egyptian Goddess Astarte.
This suggests that Christmas is more important than Easter.
11 Aug 10
Originally posted by Conrau KAnd why would other languages have preference over English? We are all talking english here, so it's logical so look for the origins of english words.
This is typical Anglophile ignorance. The name Christmas may be derived from Christ and the name Easter may be derived from a pagan deity -- but these are not the names of these feasts in other languages. The normative name for Christmas is 'feast of the nativity' (festus nativitatis) and for Easter 'Paschal feast' (Pascha).
11 Aug 10
Originally posted by danielnovacoviciI have posted about this for 2 years here. December 25 is the birth of the great God Mithras. Born of a virgin and who ascended into the heavens. Around 300c.e. the 2 dominant religions among the Romans were Christianity and Mithraism. Christianity got the official nod from Constantine as the official state religion. Even parts of the Vatican were a Mithran temple. Who said "Unless you drink of My blood and eat of My flesh you will not be with me in the next world"? Mithras, of course! The quote can still be found carved in stone on a Vatican wall.
One of the most important christian holiday is 25 december, the supposed day of birth of Jesus Christ .... BUT IS NOT THEN!!!! It was declared by church around 300 BC to coincide with other existing festivities worshiping the sun, more exactly the winter solstice. And from that time...all the christians make a lot of fuss around this "stolen" date.
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11 Aug 10
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Originally posted by TheMaster37They do not have preference but they are important. You cannot claim that Easter is derived from a pagan deity when in fact most of the Christian world knows this feast under a different name which has no pagan association. When you talk about Christianity, you have to transcend cultural divisions. Christmas may be a significant holiday in English-speaking countries but it is not elsewhere. For example, in the Orthodox churches, it is actually the final Sunday of advent in which the fast ends.
And why would other languages have preference over English? We are all talking english here, so it's logical so look for the origins of english words.
It just strikes me as the epitome of hubris when Christians, probably insulated in America with little cross-cultural experience, can only think of Christianity according to their own narrow culture.
Now you suggest that Christmas must be particularly important because it derives from the name 'Christ' (leaving aside that in other places, this is not true and the feast day is called something else.) Why then would the feast of Christ the King not be equally significant? What about the feast of the Transfiguration or the feast of the Eucharist, which also center around Christ? Why not the feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Infant Jesus? Why not the feast of the Annunciation which celebrates his conception?
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11 Aug 10
Originally posted by caissad4Yes, however, as has already been argued, knowledge of Mithraism remains imperfect. It could eventuate that significant, yet unknown, details of this cult are severely at odds with Christian doctrine. Furthermore, we actually have Christians writers in the second century, Tertullian and St Justin Martyr, acknowledging similarities but also repudiating Mithraism. For example, St Justin the Martyr writes:
I have posted about this for 2 years here. December 25 is the birth of the great God Mithras. Born of a virgin and who ascended into the heavens. Around 300c.e. the 2 dominant religions among the Romans were Christianity and Mithraism. Christianity got the official nod from Constantine as the official state religion. Even parts of the Vatican were a Mithran ...[text shortened]... xt world"? Mithras, of course! The quote can still be found carved in stone on a Vatican wall.
[The Eucharistic rite] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. First Apology, Ch. 66.
Justin's statement clearly acknowledges that a similarity with Mithraism but significantly also reveals that the Mithraic rite was for initiation whereas St Justin goes on to explain this as a weekly rite of worship.
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12 Aug 10
Originally posted by Conrau K"It just strikes me as the epitome of hubris when Christians, probably insulated in America with little cross-cultural experience, can only think of Christianity according to their own narrow culture."
They do not have preference but they are important. You cannot claim that Easter is derived from a pagan deity when in fact most of the Christian world knows this feast under a different name which has no pagan association. When you talk about Christianity, you have to transcend cultural divisions. Christmas may be a significant holiday in English-speaking ...[text shortened]... us or the Infant Jesus? Why not the feast of the Annunciation which celebrates his conception?
Interesting that you manage a side swipe at Americans when in fact, as I posted previously, it was a scholarly monk from Northumbria who was later venerated in England that originally suggested that the name Easter originated from a pagan deity.
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12 Aug 10
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Originally posted by UllrInteresting that you manage a side swipe at Americans when in fact, as I posted previously, it was a scholarly monk from Northumbria who was later venerated in England that originally suggested that the name Easter originated from a pagan deity.
"It just strikes me as the epitome of hubris when Christians, probably insulated in America with little cross-cultural experience, can only think of Christianity according to their own narrow culture."
Interesting that you manage a side swipe at Americans when in fact, as I posted previously, it was a scholarly monk from Northumbria who was later venerated in England that originally suggested that the name Easter originated from a pagan deity.
I didn't intend to generalise about all American Christians nor do I intend to confine this way of thinking only to American Christians. Those Christians however who live in Europe and are exposed to different Christians and different cultural expressions of Christianity would generally not make this mistake. They would see that Easter is known under a number of non-pagan names. Because America is largely insulated however from other cultural forms of Christianity, they are particularly vulnerable -- which is why groups like the Jehovah's Witness and Seventh Day Adventists make this error.
Anyway, St Bede, whom I guess you refer to here, was not arguing that Easter was a pagan derivative festival. He argued that the name came from the goddess Eostre whose name had become the name for April and that way had become interchangeable with Easter. So, um, St Bede kind of proves my point. While acknowledging that the name had a pagan origin, he certainly did not say that the feast itself was pagan. Have you been following this thread?