06 Dec 19
@divegeester saidIf you're going to discount the big miracle of the resurrection, I don't see how you can hang on to any of the other supposed lesser miracles, raising Lazarus, turning water to wine, healing the centurion's servant, etc.
I disagree, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead then he was a liar not a magician. His followers who lied about him rising were manipulative conspirators, bad people who sought to achieve a political end by lying.
There is no "magic".
If you're going to discount the resurrection, then why suppose Jesus lied or performed any miracles at all? Maybe the resurrection bit, as well as all the other supposed lesser miracles, were made up by people later on, to give the story of his life, teachings, and death a weight and poignancy they would not otherwise have had.
06 Dec 19
@moonbus saidI'm not discounting anything; I'm just playing with ideas for the point of exploring the possibilities.
If you're going to discount the big miracle of the resurrection, I don't see how you can hang on to any of the other supposed lesser miracles, raising Lazarus, turning water to wine, healing the centurion's servant, etc.
If you're going to discount the resurrection, then why suppose Jesus lied or performed any miracles at all? Maybe the resurrection bit, as well as all the ...[text shortened]... he story of his life, teachings, and death a weight and poignancy they would not otherwise have had.
I refer you to my earlier reply to you where I said that if we jumped straight to your supposition then this thread would as dull as dishwater.
06 Dec 19
@divegeester
Ah, well then, let's not jump to any hasty conclusions.
There's nothing less fulfilling than trying to resurrect a dead thread.
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06 Dec 19
1 edit
I disagree, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead then he was a liar and a con-man, possibly deluded, but not a magician; and his followers who lied about him rising were manipulative conspirators, bad people who sought to achieve a political end by lying.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus did rise from the dead, YET those things STILL happened -
"munipulative conspirators, bad people who sought to achieve a political end by lying" from some who should have known better.
That is not all the believers. And that is not all of the. But such DID rise up and DID do these bad things because when you want to do evil things the best way is to include SOME aspect of truth.
Now when this is pointed out that such bad influences DID flourish along side of better disciples, this is flagged here by some as speaking evilly and intolerantly towards religious people.
At least three posters criticized strongly a faithful and frank teacher for merely pointing out that aside from true disciples, various mixtures of poor or false disciples gave the entire Gospel a bad name.
So, if God does have a spiritual enemy, how could you not recognize that the over influence of "munipulative conspirators, bad people who sought to achieve a political end by lying" was not the work of God's enemy to ruin the church?
Ie. the "ISMS" of Christiandom were sometimes overrun by these destructive activities - involving some unbelievers but involving some terribly wayward Christians also.
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidWhat are you on about?
@divegeester
Ah, well then, let's not jump to any hasty conclusions.
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidI agree, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead as it is written the whole thing becomes not much. If Jesus did rise from the dead as it is written, then nothing would be more important either wouldn't you agree?
If the resurrection didn't really happen, really physically, and not merely metaphorically/spiritually/allegorically, then that blasts Christianity out of the water. The resurrection is the 'proof', if you will, that the teachings attributed to Jesus are divine in origin, the certification that they are Laws Of God With Capital Letters, backed up by eternal threats, and not m ...[text shortened]... e, superstitious, magical, bits from Christianity -- including, SPOILER ALERT, the existence of God.
07 Dec 19
@kellyjay saidIt would be important, yes, but bear in mind that the story of Jesus's resurrection is not the only one known from antiquity. There are older accounts of anthropomorphic gods rising from the dead.
I agree, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead as it is written the whole thing becomes not much. If Jesus did rise from the dead as it is written, then nothing would be more important either wouldn't you agree?
07 Dec 19
@fmf saidLooked at from the perspective of an individual wondering which religion to choose from among the all available ones, no one would choose Christianity on the grounds of its "cultural attributes".
I think you are underestimating the positive attributes of "cultural" Christianity. I'd certainly rate them as being more than "not much".
What draws people to Christianity is the promise of personal immortality (the "glad tidings", you will be saved). Take that away, and Christianity looses its appeal for the individual. The resurrection is the 'proof' of personal immortality. If people broadly come to doubt that it really happened, then Christianity doesn't have anything to offer which you couldn't get joining local chess, rotary, hiking, quilting, and Mardi Gras clubs.
07 Dec 19
1 edit
@divegeester saidI think you and I both reached the immediately obvious conclusion that without the resurrection, Christianity is gutted.
What are you on about?
Correct me if I've misinterpreted your meaning.
07 Dec 19
6 edits
@moonbus saidDid any of these gods have a string of predicted events surrounding their birth, life, death, and rising from the dead as Jesus? The facts alone on did it happen are not all that is in play with Jesus' birth, life, death, rising from the dead. Have you read the Old Testament scriptures about this? Have you ever read just the 22 Psalm alone knowing it was written long before the events occurred in time?
It would be important, yes, but bear in mind that the story of Jesus's resurrection is not the only one known from antiquity. There are older accounts of anthropomorphic gods rising from the dead.
Concerning your anthropomorphic gods, I'm going to ignore the "older accounts" also tied to Jesus is a timeline that is in question for all of the universe, and its reasons for being here as well. So Jesus Christ’s story, including His resurrection matter on not just rising from the dead, His life, death, and rising from the dead, it all matters in so many other places too.
Looking at these other gods, did they all arise within the universe, and die and rise? If so, then Jesus and they are nowhere near the same since the God who created the universe did it ex nihilo; therefore, Jesus' life stands apart wholly different than any other, all of that without even touching the basics of the Trinity. God transcends all time, space, matter, and energy. He did not come from the universe; the universe came from Him. If these other gods are simply a product of some evolutionary change within the universe, there is no comparison.
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidNo, what drew me to Christianity was Jesus Christ, you are talking about the byproducts of the faith, the reality of it is Jesus Christ. The thing about God and His gifts, some people are all about the gifts, to the point they ignore the giver, He is by far the best part of the equation. Through thick and thin, He has made us promises He keeps in this life.
Looked at from the perspective of an individual wondering which religion to choose from among the all available ones, no one would choose Christianity on the grounds of its "cultural attributes".
What draws people to Christianity is the promise of personal immortality (the "glad tidings", you will be saved). Take that away, and Christianity looses its appeal for the indivi ...[text shortened]... to offer which you couldn't get joining local chess, rotary, hiking, quilting, and Mardi Gras clubs.
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidAh, but can they claim their authenticity based on the undocumented “laying on of hands” from antiquity to present day?
It would be important, yes, but bear in mind that the story of Jesus's resurrection is not the only one known from antiquity. There are older accounts of anthropomorphic gods rising from the dead.
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidWe did, but I am obviously more open minded, creative and less circumspect than you. I like to explore possibilities, use my imagination and take intellectual risks.
I think you and I both reached the immediately obvious conclusion that without the resurrection, Christianity is gutted.
Correct me if I've misinterpreted your meaning.
Except when making religious authenticity claims based on 2000 years of laying on of hands.
07 Dec 19
@kellyjay saidYes, I have read the OT. So did whoever wrote the NT. There is an easy non-supernatural explanation for all the prophecies allegedly fulfilled. Whoever wrote the NT made up the bit about the resurrection, and made up all the incidents which would have fulfilled the OT prophecies, or re-interpreted such incidents as could be made to fit the OT prophecies.
Did any of these gods have a string of predicted events surrounding their birth, life, death, and rising from the dead as Jesus? The facts alone on did it happen are not all that is in play with Jesus' birth, life, death, rising from the dead. Have you read the Old Testament scriptures about this? Have you ever read just the 22 Psalm alone knowing it was written long before ...[text shortened]... r gods are simply a product of some evolutionary change within the universe, there is no comparison.
"Jesus' life stands apart wholly different than any other." You are mistaken about this. Every incident in the Jesus-story has a counterpart in some other prior myth: virgin birth, miraculous healings, prophecies fulfilled, betrayal, horrible death, bodily resurrection, sacrificing himself for the benefit of mankind, all the same details can be found if you just read enough in the history of other religions.
Similar miracle stories abound in other religions. There is no compelling reason to believe that only the Christian miracle stories are true and that all the others are false.