A Christian

Originally posted by dj2becker
So when you are going to stop speaking in ambiguous parables and tell us what you believe?

Ps: I somehow don't think that a guy actually knows what he believes if he fails to explain what he believes...

Who cares what he (or anyone) believes?

Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

In the transcendent realm, truth is knowable via eliminating illusion and conditioned beliefs. In other words, drop all your indoctrination about God, and approach this transcendent reality via your own mystical practice of contemplation, study, meditation, prayer, etc.

In other words, be still and know I am God (quoting your Bible). Or, "the still mind sees clearly" (famous Zen expression).

We have to go beyond this useless preoccupation with beliefs. Religious beliefs are a dime a dozen, and indicative of nothing more than indoctrination. People have been killing each other over mere beliefs for thousands of years.

Direct experience is the ticket, beyond belief, into the realm of "gnosis", or wisdom. Direct experience via transcendent practice and the ruthless elimination of mere religious beliefs and assumptions.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Who cares what he (or anyone) believes?

Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

In the transcendent realm, truth is knowable via eliminating illusion a ...[text shortened]... ia transcendent practice and the ruthless elimination of mere religious beliefs and assumptions.

uh oh you mentioned Sophia right after you said knowing.

Originally posted by frogstomp
uh oh you mentioned Sophia right after you said knowing.

Any (functional) relation to Mary?

Originally posted by frogstomp
after you understand the word it wont seem like that to you.

P.S neither did Paul think that.

Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ". At least Paul knew what he was speaking about...

Originally posted by dj2becker
Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ". At least Paul knew what he was speaking about...

If the words didn't come from Paul, I'd expect you'd call the command heresy.

Originally posted by telerion
If the words didn't come from Paul, I'd expect you'd call the command heresy.

You can judge a tree by its fruits.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Who cares what he (or anyone) believes?

Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

In the transcendent realm, truth is knowable via eliminating illusion a ...[text shortened]... ia transcendent practice and the ruthless elimination of mere religious beliefs and assumptions.

This is a well-thought out and very articulate post. As such, it has no place in this forum. Let's try and keep the attacks personal, the invective sharp, and the intellectual logic to a minimum, shall we?

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Who cares what he (or anyone) believes?

Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

In the transcendent realm, truth is knowable via eliminating illusion a ...[text shortened]... ia transcendent practice and the ruthless elimination of mere religious beliefs and assumptions.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

You're right - truth has nothing to do with belief. However, knowledge of truth has everything to do with belief.

If you are looking for direct experience, you will have to trust your senses and your intellect. In the example above, you have to have faith that the other person is accurately reporting what he sees and not, for instance, saying that he sees a blue sky when he sees a green one.

Originally posted by David C
This is a well-thought out and very articulate post. As such, it has no place in this forum. Let's try and keep the attacks personal, the invective sharp, and the intellectual logic to a minimum, shall we?

And the sarcasm, please.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Who cares what he (or anyone) believes?

Truth has nothing to do with "belief". Truth is a direct experience, either one of internal logical consistency (2+2=4) or consensual sensory perception (the sky is blue today -- do you agree? yes, it is blue, I see that too).

In the transcendent realm, truth is knowable via eliminating illusion a ...[text shortened]... ia transcendent practice and the ruthless elimination of mere religious beliefs and assumptions.

Where do you think most 'religious' ideas come from? They have all sprung from the mind of man. They have all arisen from various 'direct experiences'. Each one seemed to be as internally logical as your 2+2=4, and the consencus of a group following their combined sensory perceptions lead to their formulations.

'Eliminating illusion' from the human psyche is impossible for the psyche itself to accomplish. And our 'mystical practicing' can open us up to being deceived as much as, if not more than, clearing away conditioned beliefs and propaganda.

There is no way you can determine ultimate truth following these avenues. Of course we must use them both in the most responsible way we can, but without God directly revealing Himself, there would be no hope for man. The base idea that we can find truth without Him revealing it, is the very mistake that Adam and Eve made. (they ignored what God had revealed about the tree, and believed a lie instead.)

Now it sounds like I'm saying that somehow, despite my claims above, I have discovered the truth after all. So be it. There is no other way for any man to know the origin of the universe, the explanation for our living contrary to the natural law we all know inside and the guilt we feel regularly, nor the promise of salvation in Christ, than for these things to have been revealed to us by God.

Jesus said that 'noone can come to me unless the Father draw him.' That is to say that, within ourselves, there is nothing that would enable us to even recognize our sin, admit our guilt, humble ourselves, seek forgiveness and repent. God reaches out to us (we cannot reach Him otherwise), convicting us of our sinfullness, and if we are at all open to Him, we can choose to receive the forgiveness that He makes available.