24 Apr 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloGood question. The only way that I can answer it is with another question (annoying, I know): How do you decide in the rest of your life what makes sence and what doesn't? How do you decide what is good advice and what is not? These are not easy questions to answer either, but they are related to yours, and if you come close to the limit of those questions, I think you will come close to the answer for yours.
hi thesonofsaul,
to answer your first question, i was speaking specifically about the god of chrisitian scripture, as laid out in the bible.
i tend to agree with you that taking the bible less literally at certain junctures makes much more sense to me. which is another question for me: how much of the book was meant to be taken strictly literally? i personally don't think "all of it" would be a satisfactory answer.
Not much help, sure, but this is spirituality, not something easy like rocket science.
... --- ...
24 Apr 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloHi LJ. How did you find out about this site? I have to tell you, there are better place to learn about Christianity. It is a great place to place chess though. Do you play much?
i want to belive in the christian god, but there are many things about the faith that make no sense to me. here are just a couple:
1. am i to believe that our only purpose here on earth is to worship and glorify god? that seems egotistical on god's part to the extreme. what satisfaction could god possibly derive out of forcing me to try but knowing ...[text shortened]... i think are crucially important. i am open to all forms of criticism and alternative viewpoints.
25 Apr 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloHey Lemon,
hi darfius,
you obviously seem to have established a real connection with the bible. part of my problem with christianity lies in the bible itself. i guess i could give an analogy:
i am a teacher, and i love to teach. at the end of the day, i want nothing more than my students under me to do well and get good grades (i wish i could give them all ...[text shortened]... instructions more clear? or do you think that the fault in understanding is completely our own?
First I want to say that I applaud you for being a teacher, and one who loves their job at that! We need more of you these days.
I like your analogy, and I'll work with it.
Say God is the 'teacher' and we are the 'students'. As a teacher, I'm sure you've dealt with problem children. Those who seem to cause trouble, and no matter how kind and understanding you are, they still cause trouble. Well, in God's eyes, we are all problem children because we won't stop sinning. And just like failing a test in school has consequences, when we fail to live a perfect life, and sin, our punishment is being forever away from God. And we brought it on ourselves, either through not studying (the Bible) or thinking we were too smart to waste time on school (pleasing God). But just like you have compassion for your students, God had compassion for us. He didn't want to see us all fail, so He offered us a cheat sheet. Instead of us paying the price for our own decision to sin, He came to earth as a man to pay the penalty for us. In essence, He's offering us another test with a cheat sheet. If we just accept His offer and are thankful, He will tear up our old test (old, sinful life), and when He grades us (judges us), He will look at the new test (look at us and see Jesus in us) and pass us (allow us into Heaven with Him).
Maybe the Bible is confusing because you're looking for the wrong answers. The Bible was written so Man could learn that no matter what we do, it will never erase our sin, and it's meant to underline our dependance on God. The story of Abraham was God establishing a covenant with a certain group of people (Jews) so they could both act as a beacon to the world that He exists (by surviving countless persecutions and dispersions, including 1900 years of Israel not existing!) and by yielding the Messiah; our Savior, Jesus Christ. When Jesus came, many people rejected Him because He demanded selflessness from them. But He practiced what He preached! God displayed His love for mankind on that cross. The most evil (on the surface) act perpetrated by God in the OT according to atheists pales in comparison to His act of love on that cross. I can't even imagine going from God(!) to man, can you? From limitless to limited? That was the first step of His love. Then He stood silently as the people He loved spit on Him, beat Him, and finally nailed Him to a cross. As they jeered Him, He screamed out 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!' Can you imagine that love, Lemon? I couldn't. Not before I asked Him to help me. Now I can't think of anything better than to share what I've found. To share Him. I continue to pray for you, Lemon. Remember Revelation 3:20, He stands at the door of your heart and waits for you to open it.
25 Apr 05
Originally posted by DarfiusLJ, if you're a teacher then please repeat after me:
Hey Lemon,
First I want to say that I applaud you for being a teacher, and one who loves their job at that! We need more of you these days.
I like your analogy, and I'll work with it.
Say God is the 'teacher' and we are the 'students'. As a teacher, I'm sure you've dealt with problem children. Those who seem to cause trouble, and no matter ...[text shortened]... . Remember Revelation 3:20, He stands at the door of your heart and waits for you to open it.
"LALALALALALALALALALALA I'm not listening!"
🙂
25 Apr 05
Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, to illustrate a point:
D. defines the Jews as the beacon of the Almighty. How is this to be reconciled with the fact that, the same people from whom Christ would come, also were those who called for Him to be crucified.
Now, we all know that that idea was one of many which were used to very evil ends in the past, and today one cannot even mention it without cries of anti-Jewish hatred.
But:
1) Does it not show the folly of thinking in terms of "chosen people", whereas, leaving salvation aside, when one thinks logically, one sees that the God of Christianity loves all men equally, be they of any faith or of none;
2) That, although Jesus was crucified for our sins, that never meant that men would stop sinning, not even before the Lord himself, which is surely the greatest example. For it was Man that Jesus came to save, and Man who nailed him to the Cross, which is rather central to Christianity, at least as I understand it.
End of advocate session. I wonder if I'll get paid for this...
25 Apr 05
Originally posted by ColettiPerhaps you'd actually care to address his point, rather than simply dismiss it out of hand because John Calvin and the Westminister Statement of Faith presumes that God went to all the trouble of creating the human race so a small predetermined "elect" would get eternal salvation and everybody else would get screwed. Now that's not logical even if it is a good deal once you've managed to decide your one of the predetermined "elect".
Nice thought, but not logical.
26 Apr 05
Originally posted by royalchickenhe heh. that's good. your words strike a resounding chord. my personal favorite gradeschool debating mechanism follows along these lines:
LJ, if you're a teacher then please repeat after me:
"LALALALALALALALALALALA I'm not listening!"
🙂
1st child: you're a poo-head (or something of similar effect)
2nd child: i know you are but what am I?
1st: (it just doesn't really matter what they retort with)
2nd: i know you are but what am I?
.
.
.
cycle repeats endlessly, and the 2nd child cannot possibly lose the debate as long as he factors in that he may have to switch to "i know I am but what are YOU?" if the 1st child tries to get crafty.
26 Apr 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou have asked avery honest question! A question that many have been afraid to ask.
i want to belive in the christian god, but there are many things about the faith that make no sense to me. here are just a couple:
1. am i to believe that our only purpose here on earth is to worship and glorify god? that seems egotistical on god's part to the extreme. what satisfaction could god possibly derive out of forcing me to try but knowing ...[text shortened]... i think are crucially important. i am open to all forms of criticism and alternative viewpoints.
To answer that queation you must go back to GENESIS 1:1
In the begining God created the heaven and the earth.
In just this one statement it seems that heaven and earth is complete.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What happened to make the earth void and without form?
GOD is a GOD of creation. HE has created any that has ever been created. HE has created things that can never come to our mind. HE created all things to serve and worship HIM. would it be fair to say that HE has that right. Would it be fair to say that GOD has the right to create things that gives HIM pleasure. But GOD, went futher then that. HE created creatures that were not Robots. HE created creatures with a brain. A brain that is able to make choices.Therefore all of the heavnly creatures( angels and such) were created with free choice. They were created to worship and serve GOD, with free choice. Something happened in verse one to make it nessary for verse two. When GOD created the earth and the man. There was a one to one relationship, between the the two.GOD spoke to man and man spoke to GOD. That is until we get to GENESIS chapter 3. Then there is another voice in the garden of eden, the serpent. Was it the serpent talking or was the serpent being used by another force. Remember the Serpepent got his name from Adam when GOD brought it to Adam to be named.
All the sin that has been known to man has come from GENESIS chapter 3. When man became disobediant to what GOD had told him. When man did what was against what GOD had said that became sin.Man had a choice, to obey what GOD had said, or disobey what GOD had said. It is the same today.Man has in his life choices. the choice to do good or the choice to do evil. But all men now from Adam to you are a sinner in the eyes of GOD. Because we obeyed that third voice in the garden. Man was always to have a one to one relationship with GOD, but we chose not to. Why ? Who was that third voice that was using the Serpent.
That forbidden tree was not a trap to Adam it was a choice. There was a tree of Life, and the tree that led to Death. Adam was not focased on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil until it was brought to his attention.Failure is sin and there was no sin until Adam ate from the tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil. So man sinned by choice. Just as you have choices in your life. Choices of right and wrong.
26 Apr 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulthat's a very good point.
Good question. The only way that I can answer it is with another question (annoying, I know): How do you decide in the rest of your life what makes sence and what doesn't? How do you decide what is good advice and what is not? These are not easy questions to answer either, but they are related to yours, and if you come close to the limit of those qu ...[text shortened]... uch help, sure, but this is spirituality, not something easy like rocket science.
... --- ...
in other aspects of my life, i make decisions based on a common-sense approach and based on my instincts.
however, i think the waters may get muddied when it comes to my taking a common-sense approach to interpreting aspects of the divine, since, at least i am told (and more or less agree), that my instincts are only human and therefore corrupt and false in some ways.
i guess in other words, i know people who are very similar to each other in everyday thought and common-sense approach, but interpret religious views in vastly different ways.
but i would agree with you (and maybe this is twisting your words around too much) that in the end, what else do you have but your own common-sense approach and individual ways of decision-making (although they may be influenced by outside forces)?
26 Apr 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101hi blindfaith,
You have asked avery honest question! A question that many have been afraid to ask.
To answer that queation you must go back to GENESIS 1:1
In the begining God created the heaven and the earth.
In just this one statement it seems that heaven and earth is complete.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. ...[text shortened]... vil. So man sinned by choice. Just as you have choices in your life. Choices of right and wrong.
i liked your post quite a bit.
i conclude from it that you are a strong supporter of free will. am i right in also concluding that you support the libertarian form of free will (as opposed to compatibilist)?
by saying that That forbidden tree was not a trap to Adam it was a choice., i would think that would have to be a libertarian stance since if the world were deterministic, then an omniscient god would have known the result of putting the tree out -- and if that were the case, then i would argue that it was in fact a trap.
but i tend to agree with you because i think there are certain things i have read in the bible that would support the fact that adam was free to choose. for instance, rather than simply knowing that adam and eve had eaten of the forbidden tree, god infers that they did because he finds them hiding because they are ashamed because they now have the knowledge they are naked.
this to me would indicate either god is not omniscient or that at least determism may not hold -- which i rather think is good news. if god put the tree up so that adam would have free choice, them i'll all for that. but if god is omniscient, i fail to see how putting the tree up (knowing beforehand the result) wouldn't have just been a little fun and games??
thanks again.
26 Apr 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloThere is more to just that.Since GOD is a God of creation, he creates. Something happened in GENESIS 1:1. Since GOD is a just God. all of creation is now watching what is going on, on earth. All the Creation before earth are watching the results of living outside of GOD'S law/will. What is going on is an example of how sins destroys. What is going on is an example of making the wrong choice.
hi blindfaith,
i liked your post quite a bit.
i conclude from it that you are a strong supporter of free will. am i right in also concluding that you support the libertarian form of free will (as opposed to compatibilist)?
by saying that [b]That forbidden tree was not a trap to Adam it was a choice., i would think that would have to be a l ...[text shortened]... eforehand the result) wouldn't have just been a little fun and games??
thanks again.
[/b]
The tree of knowledge of good and evil, was how man chose to enter the war between good and evil. The war that was started in GENESIS 1:1 between GOD and Lucifer/satan the angel that used his free choice the wrong way. When Lucifer rebelled GOD could have wiped him and his followers out with little or no trouble. But would the rest of creation understand.Would there be one rebellion after another.
GOD created the earth as an example for all of creation to watch. To watch the war between HIM and satan. GOD wants all to watch and understand what happens when one of created beings decide to rebel. GOD wants all to see and understand that nothing can live successfully outside of HIS created law. Nothing can live without HIM.