A Couple Sincere Questions

Originally posted by no1marauder
Perhaps you'd actually care to address his point, rather than simply dismiss it out of hand because John Calvin and the Westminister Statement of Faith presumes that God went to all the trouble of creating the human race so a small predetermined "elect" would get eternal salvation and everybody else would get screwed. Now that's not logical ...[text shortened]... ven if it is a good deal once you've managed to decide your one of the predetermined "elect".

Cheers, No.1. Once I get round to joining, I'll try and remember to throw a rec. your way!

Originally posted by blindfaith101
You have asked avery honest question! A question that many have been afraid to ask.
To answer that queation you must go back to GENESIS 1:1
In the begining...

Come on now, Blindfaith, even I've read further than that!

Originally posted by sjeg
Nice, eh? Well, care to enlighten me as to why it is not logical, then, Coletti?

You said "...when one thinks logically, one sees that the God of Christianity loves all men equally, be they of any faith or of none; "

I don't think you can find any Biblical support for this notion unless you are using a very loose definition of love (such as general material blessings God extends to people regardless of faith), but not if you mean God shows all people love regardless of their faith, this would be false for the Bible says God intends to punish some according to their actions, and bless other according to theirs.

Originally posted by LemonJello
hi darfius,

you obviously seem to have established a real connection with the bible. part of my problem with christianity lies in the bible itself. i guess i could give an analogy:

i am a teacher, and i love to teach. at the end ...[text shortened]... o you think that the fault in understanding is completely our own?

Are you familiar with the scriptures,

1 Corinthians 1 20-25
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 2 6-16
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.


The point to these passages I'd like for you to think about is that
God does reveal His truth to us, but the natural man rejects it. This
does not mean that the natural man will not grasp anything of the
Kingdom of God but for the most part the deeper truths of God will
always be hidden from them. Your point however is understanding,
and saying that God has not made it plain enough to us to grasp
what we need, even here I would disagree. God does not teach
children the things only adults are required to know and understand
but God teaches them those things children are required to know
and understand. Learning is a line upon line type of thing, the
foundations are required, and then the building of knowledge can
begin. What you need to know now if you go to God will be revealed
if you are really going to God to recieve from Him.

God in another passage has promised;

James 1 5-7

5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a doubleminded man, unstable in all he does.

God will help us understand if we come to Him, but those that simply
want to avoid God will be trying to understand the things of God will
read only with the knowledge and wisdom of this world and will be
attempting to understand the wisdom from above.
Kelly

Originally posted by Coletti
You said "...when one thinks logically, one sees that the God of Christianity loves all men equally, be they of any faith or of none; "

I don't think you can find any Biblical support for this notion unless you are using a very loose definition of love (such as general material blessings God extends to people regardless of faith), but not if you mean G ...[text shortened]... ys God intends to punish some according to their actions, and bless other according to theirs.

Why did he bother to create the entire human race when he could have just created your tiny "elect" and spared himself all that extraneous labor? It seems like your God needs to read up on how to more efficiently allot his time.

Originally posted by LemonJello
hi blindfaith,

i liked your post quite a bit.

i conclude from it that you are a strong supporter of free will. am i right in also concluding that you support the libertarian form of free will (as opposed to compatibilist)?

by saying that [b]That forbidden tree was not a trap to Adam it was a choice., i would think that would have to be a l ...[text shortened]... eforehand the result) wouldn't have just been a little fun and games??


thanks again.

[/b]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

in between those passages you will see .
1) God didn't tell eve not to eat,
2) neither Adam or Eve had any clue what good an evil was.
3) Eve thought she would become "wise", as if she knew what that meant.
4) God had feet
5)Adam before the "fall" lived like a hunter gatherer and after it he was a farmer
6) that Gen 1:25 and 1:27 Gen 2:7 and 2:19 sequences are mutually exclusive.

The war between God and Satan seems like a bet between Mortimer and Randolph Duke and we are Billy Ray Valentines

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why did he bother to create the entire human race when he could have just created your tiny "elect" and spared himself all that extraneous labor? It seems like your God needs to read up on how to more efficiently allot his time.

Efficiency is not a characteristic of God. Time management in the sense you use the phrase does not apply either. For God, time management mean being outside of time, and the creator of time - before the beginning - time has no meaning.

Originally posted by sjeg
Come on now, Blindfaith, even I've read further than that!

but do you believe and accept what you read?

Originally posted by Coletti
Efficiency is not a characteristic of God. Time management in the sense you use the phrase does not apply either. For God, time management mean being outside of time, and the creator of time - before the beginning - time has no meaning.

🙄🙄😴

Originally posted by no1marauder
🙄🙄😴

You seem amused by his answer, why would God care about time
as much as getting something done the way He wants it? It isn't
like God has never been either in a hurry, or missed a chance to
do something.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You seem amused by his answer, why would God care about time
as much as getting something done the way He wants it? It isn't
like God has never been either in a hurry, or missed a chance to
do something.
Kelly

His answer is non-responsive to my real point. Please re-read the threads above that I was responding to. Coletti believes that God created the entire human race so a tiny group of the "elect" would be saved for eternal salvation and the rest of the garbage (i.e. 99.9% of the human race) discarded. Further, he believes that the members of the "elect" are predestined before they are born to be saved. My point was why did God bother with going through this whole rigamorole of Man's existence at all? The "time" comment was just being sarcastic.

Originally posted by no1marauder
His answer is non-responsive to my real point. Please re-read the threads above that I was responding to. Coletti believes that God created the entire human race so a tiny group of the "elect" would be saved for eternal salvat ...[text shortened]... s existence at all? The "time" comment was just being sarcastic.

I'm sorry; I missed the point of the query, my bad.

I don't think it is as you described it, but the topic is complicated
when we look at freewill, free moral agency and so on.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sorry; I missed the point of the query, my bad.

I don't think it is as you described it, but the topic is complicated
when we look at freewill, free moral agency and so on.
Kelly

If my description of his beliefs is inaccurate, he should correct them. Of course, the topic is complicated dealing with the ultimate meaning (if any) of man's existence, but it is certainly worth exploring in the thread if I have unfairly mischaracterized Coletti's views (and even if I have not).

Originally posted by no1marauder
His answer is non-responsive to my real point. Please re-read the threads above that I was responding to. ...

🙂 I you really want to have fun - look at the post that no1 was not really responding too.

Originally posted by Coletti
Efficiency is not a characteristic of God. Time management in the sense you use the phrase does not apply either. For God, time management mean being outside of time, and the creator of time - before the beginning - time has no meaning.

could you explain just what " outside of time" is exactly , and when did time begin?