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@pettytalk saidDonkeys and goats get a rough hand in the Bible.
I could address all that you said, but I'm not going to be so charitable to you. However, I will address politics. A kingdom is indeed a political state, as evidenced by the presence of a king within the title of politicians. It's one of the five major forms of government, typically referred to as a monarchy. Jesus is often described as the King of Kings within God's kingdo ...[text shortened]... pare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
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@fmf saidThere are many other possibilities as an answer. As is written, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
I think it answers this... "If Jesus is God, the Father, the Lord Almighty, and people also claim God never changes, how to explain the 180 degrees change of direction?" ...more plausibly than any contorted theological explanation will.
A new religion does away with the old one. It destroys it to lay down a new foundation.
344d
@pettytalk saidBut that's clearly not what happened when Christianity was created decades after Jesus died.
A new religion does away with the old one. It destroys it to lay down a new foundation.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidSeems that the Lord likes to talk about goats, sheep, donkeys, horses, camels, dogs, and swines.
Donkeys and goats get a rough hand in the Bible.
A camel that has to go through the eye of a needle gets the roughest hand.
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@fmf saidRegarding the four Gospels, if the events were recorded after they took place, it can be attributed to Jesus not having authored any writings himself. It was customary during that time to transmit stories orally.
But that's clearly not what happened when Christianity was created decades after Jesus died.
Similarly, I view the situation through the lens of Plato and Xenophon, who served as the authors of the "gospels" for Socrates, who also did not leave behind any written records of his teachings. Memory inevitably plays a role when accounts are written down after the fact. Given that there are four Gospels recounting essentially the same events and discussions, it ultimately distills down to the same core essence.
@pettytalk saidIf you believe he was born in Bethlehem, then that is your prerogative. But is your belief based on the convoluted attempt to place him there that the writers of the Gospels named "Matthew" and "Luke" inserted into their texts? Whoever Jesus was, assuming he is not some kind of composite figure, we have absolutely no way of knowing where he was born. As I say, the Bethlehem thing is merely evidence of the piggybacking I mentioned.
Do you have any evidence that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem? Do we have any evidence of where he was born?
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@fmf saidYou were the one asserting that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem. I simply requested evidence for your assertion. Why are you attempting to misrepresent what I said? In fact, that's precisely why I also asked if anyone knows where Jesus was born. There are no birth certificates, and that was my point. To clarify, my beliefs were not expressed; I am merely discussing the biblical texts as they are written.
If you believe he was born in Bethlehem, then that is your prerogative. But is your belief based on the convoluted attempt to place him there that the writers of the Gospels named "Matthew" and "Luke" inserted into their texts? Whoever Jesus was, assuming he is not some kind of composite figure, we have absolutely no way of knowing where he was born. As I say, the Bethlehem thing is merely evidence of the piggybacking I mentioned.
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@pettytalk saidIt is commonly asserted Jesus was born in Bethlehem due to Joseph having to go there for the census. (In reality of course there was no requirement for Joseph to return to his place of birth for the census, as this would have been carried out in the place he was living at the time, as it is today). The Bethlehem thing was contrived (poorly) to place Jesus in Bethlehem to fulfil an OT prophecy.
You were the one asserting that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem. I simply requested evidence for your assertion. Why are you attempting to misrepresent what I said? In fact, that's precisely why I also asked if anyone knows where Jesus was born. There are no birth certificates, and that was my point. To clarify, my beliefs were not expressed; I am merely discussing the biblical texts as they are written.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidCan anything good come out of Bethlehem?
It is commonly asserted Jesus was born in Bethlehem due to Joseph having to go there for the census. (In reality of course there was no requirement for Joseph to return to his place of birth for the census, as this would have been carried out in the place he was living at the time, as it is today). The Bethlehem thing was contrived (poorly) to place Jesus in Bethlehem to fulfil an OT prophecy.
Micah 5:2: "But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you are small among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth for Me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
I'm not arguing against the events and statements made for prophetic confirmation. The language in the text itself confirms this. Comparing current practices with those from 2,000 years ago is not applicable.
As for extant documents detailing the requirements and details for the Roman census in Judea for paying taxes, there are none readily available. The census during Jesus' time was conducted by the Roman governor of Syria, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, around AD 7 or 8, as recorded in the Gospel of Luke. The specifics of this census are primarily found in the New Testament, which describes the census and Joseph and Mary's journey to Bethlehem for registration.
It seems that the efforts to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament were aimed at convincing those who hadn't witnessed Jesus' supernatural acts. The Jews were anticipating a messianic figure more akin to a warrior king to liberate them, and they were quite skeptical about this claim."
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?”
They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be the Son of God.”
@pettytalk saidhow to explain the 180 degrees change of direction?
If Jesus is God, the Father, the Lord Almighty, and people also claim God never changes, how to explain the 180 degrees change of direction?
The Lord Almighty from the Old Testament:
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not panic, and do not lose heart. This day the Lord will give you your enemies, the Hittites, the Kings of ...[text shortened]... l men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ml05Ty5Ao
I went over this months ago, but we'll do it again: God gave the Jews Gods law, not as a way of unduly restricting them, but to keep them from destroying themselves and/or each other. The wages of anyone sinning against the law is death, however when Jesus died and bled his blood on the cross he became an acceptable sacrifice and paid the penalty for the sins of the world. All God asks is we believe and have faith that Jesus did this for us. Believers are not perfect - just forgiven. Because of this, there is no 180 degrees change of direction, since unbelievers are still bound by God's death penalty, while believers are not.
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@mchill saidJesus died for Christians then ?
how to explain the 180 degrees change of direction?
I want over this months ago, but we'll do it again: God gave the Jews Gods law, not as a way of unduly restricting them, but to keep them from destroying themselves and/or each other. The wages of anyone sinning against the law is death, however when Jesus died and bled his blood on the cross he became an acceptable sacrif ...[text shortened]... since unbelievers are still bound by God's death penalty, while believers are not.
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@mchill saidI typically don't insult people's intelligence, and I just ignore them. I'm making a rare exception for you and this idiotic reply of yours. You are an *^!#$. Got it?
how to explain the 180 degrees change of direction?
I went over this months ago, but we'll do it again: God gave the Jews Gods law, not as a way of unduly restricting them, but to keep them from destroying themselves and/or each other. The wages of anyone sinning against the law is death, however when Jesus died and bled his blood on the cross he became an acceptable sacrif ...[text shortened]... since unbelievers are still bound by God's death penalty, while believers are not.
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@pettytalk saidOh dear.
I typically don't insult people's intelligence, and I just ignore them. I'm making a rare exception for you and this idiotic reply of yours. You are an *^!#$. Got it?