14 Mar 07
Perhaps there is a fallacy in the question in that you are calling upon finite human beings to determine the existence of infinite God. Existence as we generally experience (with a few exceptions in historical accounts) is limited by time and space. God as He is described in the Bible is not limited by time and space but enters and exits at His discretion. Evidence as you are asking for it requires time and space. Can the finite ever truly prove the infinite? We think the universe goes to infinity. Do we know? We think that the idea of numbers goes to infinitely large and/or infinitely small. Do we know? How do we prove or disprove infinity?
14 Mar 07
3 edits
Originally posted by lucifershammerJust because you've read the term "begging the question" somewhere does not mean you understand it. Can you actually demonstrate the circularity in the argument?
[b]All of the 5 ways are laughably easy to refute.
You've only done the laughing bit so far. That's easy.
what caused the first thing to come into existence? Nothing can cause itself, so how do we explain it? Oooooh, I know - let's invent something called God which CAN cause itself to come into existence.
Totally question begging.
e, in fact, the most unreasonable. Even your sentence above illustrates my point.[/b]
Lets look at the first way:
1) Nothing can move itself.
2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover.
3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.
It is assumed that there is a *first* object in motion, also, whether it is a true statement or not (I'm not a physicist) it is assumed from observation that there has never existed an object that by virtue of it's construct can move itself. From these premises it is deduced that this first object had to have been moved by something else, If there exists such a thing then it must have the property that it cannot moved by anything else. Such an entity must be God. God has the property that he creates everything. If God created the universe then there must have been an object he created first, given that this object cannot move itself it must surely have been moved by the un moved mover: God.
For starters, *first object* requires that a) infinite universe, or b) point in time at which no other point precedes it must both be not true. Secondly his assertion that nothing can move itself is justified only when considering how *he* is able to perceive the universe but has it been proven that at all levels (beyond our perception) every natural object in the universe has this property? Thirdly, the conclusion is derived from premises that are not absolutely justified.
Circularity arises because it is assumed before hand that there exists a God, and the premises (not justified) lead to this presupposition. Finally, upon deriving this conclusion it can only be true that under this condition the premises would also also true.
14 Mar 07
3 edits
Originally posted by shaloblueWe think that the idea of numbers goes to infinitely large and/or infinitely small. Do we know? How do we prove or disprove infinity?
Perhaps there is a fallacy in the question in that you are calling upon finite human beings to determine the existence of infinite God. Existence as we generally experience (with a few exceptions in historical accounts) is limited by time and space. God as He is described in the Bible is not limited by time and space but enters and exits at His discretio ...[text shortened]... to infinitely large and/or infinitely small. Do we know? How do we prove or disprove infinity?
proof of infinity (with respect to numbers):
Suppose that there is not an infinite supply of real numbers.
Let p be the sum of all positive numbers such that for all x =/= p, p > x
Let q be the sum of all negative real numbers such that for all x =/= q, q < x
Let r = p+1 such that r > p. But this contradicts for all x =/= p, p > x!
Let s = q-1 such that s < q. But this contradicts for all x =/= q, q < x!
Therefore the original assumption is false, there is an infinite supply of real numbers...also the reals are just a sub-set of the complex numbers such that these are infinite too.
17 Mar 07
Originally posted by AgergYes, I agree that in terms of ideas that are not necessarily related to objects in time and space there will always be an infinite "supply." I was relating my argument to the idea of evidence as I believed howardgee was limiting the use of the term, meaning tangible evidence that occupies time and space. In the world of the intangible, meaning thoughts, ideas, concepts, we surely understand that there is infinity, as you have so deftly demonstrated. Hence we have the word infinity. We also have words like truth, perfection, absolute. Do we acknowledge the validity of these terms and not acknowledge the validity of God?
[b]We think that the idea of numbers goes to infinitely large and/or infinitely small. Do we know? How do we prove or disprove infinity?
proof of infinity (with respect to numbers):
Suppose that there is not an infinite supply of real numbers.
. . .there is an infinite supply of real numbers...also the reals are just a sub-set of the complex numbers such that these are infinite too.[/b]
18 Mar 07
First of all, you're making the assumption a true believer would ever be looking for proof NOT to believe there is a God. Christian faith is rooted in the power and presence of God and not in empty mental calculations. Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent, and neither is it prone to falter through intellectual dissent. What would make me NOT believe in God is precisely this point: if faith in Him WERE an intellectual matter. But my subjective experiential reality attests to His power and presence outside of anything I can comprehend or explain. Such is the faith of the Christian: a real God with real power. And if you're on the outside of that faith looking in, there's nothing in this world to bring you peace. That's just the way it is, and I guarantee you that you'll still be asking these kinds of questions on your death bed, if you don't find the Truth (Christ).
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by ballsofsteelThe funny thing is that if I'm wrong I'll find out, but if you're wrong you'll never know.
First of all, you're making the assumption a true believer would ever be looking for proof NOT to believe there is a God. Christian faith is rooted in the power and presence of God and not in empty mental calculations. Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent, and neither is it prone to falter through intellectual dissent. What would make me ...[text shortened]... e asking these kinds of questions on your death bed, if you don't find the Truth (Christ).
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by howardgeeFirst of all, you're making the assumption a true believer would ever be looking for proof NOT to believe there is a God. Christian faith is rooted in the power and presence of God and not in empty mental calculations. Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent, and neither is it prone to falter through intellectual dissent. What would make me NOT believe in God is precisely this point: if faith in Him WERE an intellectual matter. But my subjective experiential reality attests to His power and presence outside of anything I can comprehend or explain. Such is the faith of the Christian: a real God with real power. And if you're on the outside of that faith looking in, there's nothing in this world to bring you peace. That's just the way it is, and I guarantee you that you'll still be asking these kinds of questions on your death bed, if you don't find the Truth (Christ).
This is a sincere question for everybody out there who believes that God exists.
It is a thought experiment for you, so give it a good shot and please admit it if you cannot think of anything at all, as this is all a part of the exercise.
The question for you to try to answer is this:
"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by DeepThoughtIt may be profitable for you to review Pascal's Wager methinks. If all you have to lose is 'being right', is that too much to ask for the assurance of heaven? After all, there's nothing funny about being wrong about the Truth. You won't find me laughing anyway. Better safe than sorry, my friend. Peace.
The funny thing is that if I'm wrong I'll find out, but if you're wrong you'll never know.
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by howardgeeIf someone could disprove all of the books of the bible completely, then I would believe that the Christian God does not exist, but it would be a whole different story to disprove any god whatsoever...
"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by ballsofsteel"Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent"
First of all, you're making the assumption a true believer would ever be looking for proof NOT to believe there is a God. Christian faith is rooted in the power and presence of God and not in empty mental calculations. Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent, and neither is it prone to falter through intellectual dissent. What would make me NO ...[text shortened]... e asking these kinds of questions on your death bed, if you don't find the Truth (Christ).
Never a truer sentence spoken!
Real faith is produced by ignorance and stupidity.
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaThe bible disproves itself. The whole thing is riddled with contradictions.
If someone could disprove all of the books of the bible completely, then I would believe that the Christian God does not exist, but it would be a whole different story to disprove any god whatsoever...
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by howardgeeIf faith needed proof, then it wouldn't be faith.
"Real faith is not produced by intellectual assent"
Never a truer sentence spoken!
Real faith is produced by ignorance and stupidity.
What you are ignorant of is what really does produce faith, and it is your fear of what you do not know which makes people like you so hostile to it. That is, to the power of God.
Ignorance precludes faith, which you plainly demonstrate. And the inability to recognize the fruitlessness of arguing against faith proves there is no rest outside of faith.
Simply put, you need Jesus Christ the same as I do.
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by ballsofsteelHow do I demonstrate ignorance?
If faith needed proof, then it wouldn't be faith.
What you are ignorant of is what really does produce faith, and it is your fear of what you do not know which makes people like you so hostile to it. That is, to the power of God.
Ignorance precludes faith, which you plainly demonstrate. And the inability to recognize the fruitlessness of arguing ...[text shortened]... roves there is no rest outside of faith.
Simply put, you need Jesus Christ the same as I do.
I know what produces faith...it is fear.
Fear of being alone.
Fear of death being the end for us.
Fear of not fitting in with others around us.
I have overcome all of these fears without recourse to an imaginary being, like God.
Simply put, you need a brain.
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by howardgeeOn the contrary, the bible proves itself. Its inner integrity is evident to anyone diligent enough to discover it for themselves.
The bible disproves itself. The whole thing is riddled with contradictions.
Most people who disregard the bible so flippantly rarely have made any significant foray into its pages, and even fewer have given any consideration beyond what they initially perceive as irreconcilable contradiction.
The presence of contradiction doesn't necessarily indicate a falsity, and neither does lack of contradiciton necessarily indicate truth.
18 Mar 07
Originally posted by howardgeeNamely, you demonstrate an ignorance of the power of God, and therefore, of Truth. If you weren't ignorant of the power of God, then you wouldn't be claiming that fear produces faith.
How do I demonstrate ignorance?
I know what produces faith...it is fear.
Fear of being alone.
Fear of death being the end for us.
Fear of not fitting in with others around us.
I have overcome all of these fears without recourse to an imaginary being, like God.
Simply put, you need a brain.
Is fear the only reason you can conceive of to have faith? Is that why YOU would have faith? Have you ever considered faith may also be established in Truth?
There is such a thing as true peace, but it is rooted in a real God with real power, Jesus Christ. I challenge you to find true peace in an imaginary god.
Have you really overcome your fears as you say, or have you merely chosen to ignore them? Faith in Christ produces true peace without ignoring life's harsh realities.
If I need a brain, then I don't suppose I could destroy you in chess now could I? 🙂