03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneummm i dont know if you noticed i actually produced the verses, in context, with cross references, highlighting the particular aspects that were pertinent to my reasoning. Let it be noted that it was the consensus of others also, that the verses in question were with reference to the Pharisaical interpretation of the law. Do not the scriptures indicate that everything showed be established at the hand of two or three witnesses. Manny stated that he thought that it was the case, as did Visted, a non Christian and a very respected poster. Therefore your baseless and false assertion seems once again, in the light of evidence, to dissipate into nothingness. Now either make with the verses or you shall be forever known as thinkofone, the unsubstantiated!
From discussions I've had with you, it's evident that you really don't care what the Bible actually states. You just go into denial mode if it is contrary to your beliefs. Take where Jesus contradicts verses from Leviticus in the Sermon on the Mount for example.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSorry RC, but you're delusional.
ummm i dont know if you noticed i actually produced the verses, in context, with cross references, highlighting the particular aspects that were pertinent to my reasoning. Let it be noted that it was the consensus of others also, that the verses in question were with reference to the Pharisaical interpretation of the law. Do not the scriptures indi ...[text shortened]... ow either make with the verses or you shall be forever known as thinkofone, the unsubstantiated!
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneoh they exist, like mist in the morning, when the sun rises and the light of reason is shone upon them, the dissipate into nothingness. Now are you gonna make with the readies or continue your personal attack? there is a lot of people waiting on your explanations you know.
Seriously, you substantiated nothing. You just pretend that my posts that show Leviticus 24:19-21 is contradicted by Matthew 5:38-39 don't exist.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIF your belief on the absolute minimum requirement is the same as mine, then we probably don't have anything to discuss. If it differs and you believe Paul's views support your belief, then provide the verses by him.
I know what you asked specifically. However, I'm interested in having a discussion. If you're not, then fine.
I posted my belief on the absolute minimum requirement for salvation which I take from the teachings of Jesus. The vast majority of Christians seem to have beliefs that fall short of this. Many seem to point to Paul as a source, if not THE sou ...[text shortened]...
BTW, seems unlikely that I can "hijack" a thread that presumably asks for MY thoughts.
It doesn't matter what you think Jesus taught. What is in question is whether or not Paul contradicts Jesus, in scripture. This was your claim. If you can't provide any specific examples to back it up, then your argument isn't going anywhere.
Find some, and then we can have a serious discussion about whether or not they are actually contradictions.
03 Feb 10
4 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasWell, I can't blame you for not wanting to post the following. Like I said earlier, "When I read Paul, I see a politician talking out both sides of his mouth in order to gain power". As such, you're going to be hard pressed to settle on a position. If you can settle on a position that's backed by an inclusive soteriology of Paul, I can't imagine that it won't fall short of what Jesus taught and will therefore be contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
[b]IF your belief on the absolute minimum requirement is the same as mine, then we probably don't have anything to discuss. If it differs and you believe Paul's views support your belief, then provide the verses by him.
It doesn't matter what you think Jesus taught. What is in question is whether or not Paul contradicts Jesus, in scripture hen we can have a serious discussion about whether or not they are actually contradictions.[/b]
1) What do you believe is the absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation"?
2) If you believe Paul's views on salvation supports this belief, provide the verses by him.
If you decide that you're willing to put something out there, I'll back up my position with the teachings of Jesus.
The ball is in your court.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'll take that as a, "I don't have any scriptural evidence that Paul contradicts Jesus."
Well, I can't blame you for not wanting to post the following. Like I said earlier, "When I read Paul, I see a politician talking out both sides of his mouth in order to gain power". As such, you're going to be hard pressed to settle on a position. If you can settle on a position that's backed by all inclusive teachings of Paul, I can't imagine that it wo ...[text shortened]... back up my position with the teachings of Jesus.
The ball is in your court.
Thread closed.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasThat's the way it seems from here.
I'll take that as a, "I don't have any scriptural evidence that Paul contradicts Jesus."
Thread closed.
Come on, ThinkOfOne, it's a fair question. Nor does not being able to answer it, if you can't, negate the value of your question -- although a new thread would be appropriate for that.
03 Feb 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThree pages of blather for this: your usual blather! As others have already intoned, it shouldn't be all that hard to give support for something you so dogmatically state to be true.
Well, I can't blame you for not wanting to post the following. Like I said earlier, "When I read Paul, I see a politician talking out both sides of his mouth in order to gain power". As such, you're going to be hard pressed to settle on a position. If you can settle on a position that's backed by an inclusive soteriology of Paul, I can't imagine that it w ...[text shortened]... back up my position with the teachings of Jesus.
The ball is in your court.
Where's the beef?
03 Feb 10
7 edits
Originally posted by Bosse de NageIf it isn't clear, I don't find Paul's teachings coherent. Because of this lack of coherence it can and has been interpreted in a myriad of ways which helps explain the myriad views on salvation. As such, there seems to be no point in trying to present a definitive position on Paul's teachings. However, from what I can tell, epi, freaky, et al. do believe they have definitive positions. Let them state them, and we'll see that they do not coincide with what I posted earlier, because it does not seem possible to get there from Paul. And we'll have a number of opinions. From what I can tell, all of them believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and will be rooted in the teachings of Paul.
That's the way it seems from here.
Come on, ThinkOfOne, it's a fair question. Nor does not being able to answer it, if you can't, negate the value of your question -- although a new thread would be appropriate for that.
One of the flavors will be rooted in the following:
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
It doesn't get much cheaper than this.
03 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
If it isn't clear, I don't find Paul's teachings coherent. Because of this lack of coherence it can and has been interpreted in a myriad of ways which helps explain the myriad views on salvation. As such, there seems to be no point in trying to present a definitive position on Paul's teachings. However, from what I can tell, epi, freaky, et al. do believe od raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
It doesn't get much cheaper than this.
From what I can tell, all of them believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and will be rooted in the teachings of Paul.
One of the flavors will be rooted in the following:
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
It doesn't get much cheaper than this.
===================================
And when the Apostle Peter quoted the prophet Joel "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21) in the very first church age gospel message, he got the idea from Paul ?
Paul had not yet become a disciple on the day of Pentacost.
Maybe one day I'll read one of your posts and get the impression that you actually are reading the Bible for yourself.
I always get the feeling you don't read the Bible but just refer to some handy dandy skeptical articles somewhere summarizing various beefs about Pauline theology.
03 Feb 10
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]C'mon Jaywill, Paul taught what he taught.
[b]==================================
From what I can tell, all of them believe in some flavor of cheap salvation and will be rooted in the teachings of Paul.
One of the flavors will be rooted in the following:
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be handy dandy skeptical articles somewhere summarizing various beefs about Pauline theology.
And Jesus taught what He taught.
And they are very different animals.
And if everyone is brave enough to post their view on salvation as I did, we'll likely see the flavor I mentioned.
But it seems doubtful anyone will. They are afraid to put it out in the light of truth.