A penny for TinkOfOne's thoughts

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes Manfred , you are not far away me thinks, consider the context for a moment if you will.

(Romans 10:5-10) . . .For Moses writes that the man that has done the righteousness of the Law will live by it.  But the righteousness resulting from faith speaks in this manner: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring C ...[text shortened]... ems that thinkofones assertion that it is 'cheap salvation', is quite without substantiation.

More eloquent than I could put it but were in full agreement on this one. Also just to put the hammer to the nail as someone just said look at Paul's life from everything we can tell. His conversion and ministry. He had to literally take on the sufferings of Christ. He could have tried to stop but God was using Paul I think to communicate to the Roman mind or even the western mind for that matter. Paul I think was humble as He fully admits that He was the sinner of sinners He says. He had a very intimate relationship with Christ as we can tell. Pardon me for saying this this way but God knocked Paul on His @$$! to get Him to see things right. Paul was Human and I'm sure he had hang ups like all of us do but Christ used him mightily to communicate the gospel. Lastly Paul was a Jew of Jews imagine having to un-learn or look at things in a totally new light?


Manny

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I agree. I dont think faith is cheap salvation. On the contrary, true faith requires more of oneself than good works alone.Faith in this often despicable situation we find ourselves in, in the faith to count on others. The faith to realize God is imminent and not just some story written in a book is much more difficult to practice than anything else really. Dont you think , ToOne?

Well put.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]It doesn't get much cheaper than this.
Or this, for that matter:

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your ered him, "I tell you the truth, [b]today you will be with me in paradise."[/b]

[/b]There is nothing in the story of the thief that precludes the idea of him having become righteous between the time of his criminal offense to the time he was crucified. In fact, that he accepts that he is being justly punished and points out that Jesus is not, may be indicators that he had.

Originally posted by jaywill
ThinkoOne says believing in your heart that [b]God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord is way too "cheap".

But just try to get ThinkofOne to confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.

Evidently, he realizes that to make such a confession and have such a belief is not "cheap" to him.[/b]

It falls short of the standard set by Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Clearly crying 'Lord, Lord' is not enough, which is what confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord amounts to.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I agree. I dont think faith is cheap salvation. On the contrary, true faith requires more of oneself than good works alone.Faith in this often despicable situation we find ourselves in, in the faith to count on others. The faith to realize God is imminent and not just some story written in a book is much more difficult to practice than anything else really. Dont you think , ToOne?

Evidently not more difficult than meeting the absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" as taught by Jesus: One must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently not more difficult than meeting the absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" as taught by Jesus: One must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

In my way of looking at things I dont make some things out to be more difficult than other things. The Way is not hard or easy. Some people are predisposed to have greater faith while others are better at not committing sin, for example.
I think its wrong to think of spirituality in terms of hard and easy. Its a very human way to think and once you strip back the layers of group stupidity, you just have people and their daily lives and feeding the cat and taking out the trash,etc. Do you see where I'm going with this? Everything is its own essence, has its own values and qualities. Beuaty is in the eye of the beholder and once you let others tell you what is beuatiful and what isn't then you have lost your own judgement, your own connection with your own divinity.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It falls short of the standard set by Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
[b]Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' T ...[text shortened]... is not enough, which is what confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord amounts to.[/b]

It falls short of the standard set by Jesus.
----------ToOne--------------------

Maybe Jesus got it wrong? Maybe he set the standard too high? Or maybe his teachings don't have any more authority than anyone else's ?

Why do you believe his teachings are so authoritative?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It falls short of the standard set by Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
[b]Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' T ...[text shortened]... is not enough, which is what confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord amounts to.[/b]

Clearly crying 'Lord, Lord' is not enough, which is what confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord amounts to.

No. What Jesus means here is that those who cry out to him for mercy will not receive it. It is not a confession of faith in Jesus Christ but a plea for clemency. Furthermore, when Paul wrote about 'confessing with your mouth', the early church was suffering a time of intense persecution in which confession could be fatal. This is hardly cheap.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently not more difficult than meeting the absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" as taught by Jesus: One must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

And Paul affirms all these points.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There is nothing in the story of the thief that precludes the idea of him having become righteous between the time of his criminal offense to the time he was crucified. In fact, that he accepts that he is being justly punished and points out that Jesus is not, may be indicators that he had.[/b]

There is nothing in the story of the thief that precludes the idea of him having become righteous between the time of his criminal offense to the time he was crucified.
-----------ToOne--------------------

What a kop out. What a wild speculation.

If that's what happened , then what inspired such a transformation in the thief so that he could change from being unrighteous to righteous enough to inherit paradise?

If he only became humble because he got caught and realised he was going to die then it's hardly a noble thing is it. It suggests that if he hadn't got caught then he would have just carried on nicking other people's stuff. Again , not particularly righteous. Any gross serial killer is capable of pleading for his soul when he's in the electric chair. Is this the "standard" of righteousness you keep talking about ToOne????

The fact that you are suggesting a change in him took place between being caught and his crucifixion doesn't exactly show off the thief in a good light. It most likely means he was doing the "fair cop guv" routine , and then when he realised that he was going to meet his Maker he makes a desperate attempt to save himself at the last minute.

Again , if this is all that Jesus requires of us then I'll just go and nick a load of stuff. If I get caught I'll get all humble and contrite and hey presto - paradise!!!

What nonsense you talk sometimes!!!!

If you were honest with yourself you would have to admit that the most plausible scenario is that he got caught on the job and realised he was going to die in his sins. He was on the cross a desperate man and admitting himself by his own words that he deserved to be there , about to die in a humiliating way. He was in an absolute corner with nowhere to go. He reached out to Jesus in faith knowing that he was at the mercy of grace and forgiveness.

There is no suggestion at all that he felt he was deserving of paradise. Infact , he says himself what he thinks he deserves. His last hope is to ask Jesus to remember him. Paradise is granted to him out of love and compassion , not because it's deserved.

For all you talk about the "standards of righteouesness " it seems that when it suits your argument you drop the standards very low.

See ya --I'm off to grab next door's DVD player..........LOL

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There is nothing in the story of the thief that precludes the idea of him having become righteous between the time of his criminal offense to the time he was crucified. In fact, that he accepts that he is being justly punished and points out that Jesus is not, may be indicators that he had.[/b]

Holy crap (substituting for the word which cannot be named)! What a tortured existence you are living.

Originally posted by knightmeister
There is nothing in the story of the thief that precludes the idea of him having become righteous between the time of his criminal offense to the time he was crucified.
-----------ToOne--------------------

What a kop out. What a wild speculation.

If that's what happened , then what inspired such a transformation in the thief so that he could c ...[text shortened]... ards very low.

See ya --I'm off to grab next door's DVD player..........LOL

I remember a christian coming to indoctrinate us (with fear).By us I mean our class at school, we must've been 10 or 11.
The christian said," As long as you ask for forgiveness from Jesus in this life you will be saved."
One student said," So basically I can carry on living whichever way I want and then, just before a car runs me over, I can quickly say "Jesus please forgive me" and I will be forgiven?"
The christian said, "Well..Yes"
A murmur of laughter went up around the classroom. I dont think anyone was converted on that day.
Even a child could see through this lame interpretation of christianity.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I remember a christian coming to indoctrinate us (with fear).By us I mean our class at school, we must've been 10 or 11.
The christian said," As long as you ask for forgiveness from Jesus in this life you will be saved."
One student said," So basically I can carry on living whichever way I want and then, just before a car runs me over, I can quickly ...[text shortened]... on that day.
Even a child could see through this lame interpretation of christianity.

I agree , it is lame - so what's your point?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I remember a christian coming to indoctrinate us (with fear).By us I mean our class at school, we must've been 10 or 11.
The christian said," As long as you ask for forgiveness from Jesus in this life you will be saved."
One student said," So basically I can carry on living whichever way I want and then, just before a car runs me over, I can quickly ...[text shortened]... on that day.
Even a child could see through this lame interpretation of christianity.

Christianity doesn't save anyone. It is the belief system designed by God and is His intention for man to live every day.

Salvation is wrought upon a person's acceptance of the work done by the Lord Jesus Christ in exchange for their own work; a realization that one's own work is insufficient and His is sufficient.

Christianity is what is supposed to happen after salvation, and is what has been historically overwhelmingly ignored by people otherwise saved.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
In my way of looking at things I dont make some things out to be more difficult than other things. The Way is not hard or easy. Some people are predisposed to have greater faith while others are better at not committing sin, for example.
I think its wrong to think of spirituality in terms of hard and easy. Its a very human way to think and once you st ...[text shortened]... what isn't then you have lost your own judgement, your own connection with your own divinity.

In my way of looking at things I dont make some things out to be more difficult than other things. The Way is not hard or easy.

Are you sure? My post was in response to the following statement / question from you:
"The faith to realize God is imminent and not just some story written in a book is much more difficult to practice than anything else really. Dont you think , ToOne?"