A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]The fact remains that Christians (such as yourself), believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering, the mechanics of which is that unbelievers will be kept alive in a burning lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity.

You've never seen me say that, so lumping me together with everyone you disagree with is by definition dishonest. This is ...[text shortened]... d reveal this to you? How do you presume to know what someones relatives in heaven are thinking?[/b]

I understood you to be a proponent of the doctrine of eternal suffering; can you please confirm how you do stand on this issue so I don't make the same mistake?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Furthermore while this mechanic is occurring the relatives of those in the lake of fire will be in heaven knowing their relatives are in the fiery lake.

And how do you know this? Did God reveal this to you? How do you presume to know what someones relatives in heaven are thinking?[/b]

Are you suggesting that people in heaven will be oblivious to the eternal suffering going on next door?

Originally posted by divegeester
I understood you to be a proponent of the doctrine of eternal suffering; can you please confirm how you do stand on this issue so I don't make the same mistake?

And give you fodder for disagreeing with something else I might believe? I don't think so.

Your description of heaven sounds suspiciously like the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So as far as I'm concerned this is no longer simply a question of honesty, there is also a question of trust. I'm not sure I can trust you to be honest.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I'm not surprised this would be problem for you, because we had a discussion once (at the science forum) about a point in time (a starting point) when we were talking about the big bang.

This has nothing to do with my comments in this thread. Are you just trying to change the topic?

You kept telling me there was no starting point in space, and I couldn't seem to get you to understand I was talking about a starting point in time... not space.
Can you reference the thread, because I strongly suspect you are mischaracterizing what was said. Why didn't you just say 'I am talking about a starting point in time'? What was so hard about that?

But this isn't the science forum, so I won't be examining topics here (at this forum) in strictly scientific terms.
As always, you make a comment then announce you will not be discussing it. Then later, you will claim that it was other people that didn't want to discuss it.

And by the way, there must have been a starting point in time, because if there was no starting point then how are we able to determine the age of the universe? From where would we begin counting?
We don't necessarily consider the universe to be all of time. If there was something before the big bang, then we might choose not to include it as part of what we call 'the universe'.
But whatever our naming conventions, current counts are determined from the big bang, and that can be done regardless of whether or not time started then, so your conclusion is clearly wrong.
However, I for one have never disputed the possibility that time started at some point. I do dispute that there is good reason to think that it did.

Originally posted by lemon lime
And give you fodder for disagreeing with something else I might believe? I don't think so.

Your description of heaven sounds suspiciously like the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So as far as I'm concerned this is no longer simply a question of honesty, there is also a question of trust. I'm not sure I can trust you to be honest.

What has trusting me got to do with you stating your postion on the doctrine of eternal suffering? Are you so fragile in your belief that me disagreeing with you about something would damage or fracture your mind-set. You know what I believe; I am open and forthright in my condemnation of the doctrine, so much so that several of its proponents here have attacked me - you being one of them of course.

I find it interesting that generally speaking those who attack me are also those who lack the courage to fully express their controversial views: josephw, Grampy Bobby, you for examples. Of course you don't have to express your view, but then again don't bleat like a lamb when I or someone else inadvertently misrepresents you.

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you suggesting that people in heaven will be oblivious to the eternal suffering going on next door?

It want be next door, so don't worry about that, just worry about not going there.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It want be next door, so don't worry about that, just worry about not going there.

There you go, showing your magnificent compassion again.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It want be next door, so don't worry about that, just worry about not going there.

What can I do, you think I deserve to be there?

Originally posted by divegeester
What has trusting me got to do with you stating your postion on the doctrine of eternal suffering? Are you so fragile in your belief that me disagreeing with you about something would damage or fracture your mind-set. You know what I believe; I am open and forthright in my condemnation of the doctrine, so much so that several of its proponents here have ...[text shortened]... , but then again don't bleat like a lamb when I or someone else inadvertently misrepresents you.

You brought up the question of honesty, so perhaps it would be good if you could be honest about what your motives are so you could be trusted.

Originally posted by divegeester
What can I do, you think I deserve to be there?

Of course you do. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Of course you do. 😏

Its really sad for so many billions of people to be so sadly deluded as to think some deity would think humans deserve another live, some in your BS heaven and some in your BS hell.

So sad.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Of course you do. 😏

But I am a Christian, how can a Christian deserve to go to hell?

Originally posted by divegeester
But I am a Christian, how can a Christian deserve to go to hell?

It's not a question of what we "deserve". We deserve nothing but have chosen to accept a grace gift which is eternal:

All believers in Christ are secure for time and eternity. Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b).

And: Ephesians 4:30 Confirms that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption."

And: John 3:15-16 Confirms that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If it could be taken away, it wasn't ever "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security isn't true, the promises of eternal life in the Word of God are erroneous.

And Paul's powerful statement for eternal security in Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Our eternal security is purchased by Christ; promised by the Father; and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
It's not a question of what we "deserve". We deserve nothing but have chosen to accept a grace gift which is eternal:

All believers in Christ are secure for time and eternity. Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater t ...[text shortened]... eternal security is purchased by Christ; promised by the Father; and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

What is the purpose behind your God figure seeking revenge against ~ and torturing ~ those who don't believe any of this?

Originally posted by divegeester
What has trusting me got to do with you stating your postion on the doctrine of eternal suffering? Are you so fragile in your belief that me disagreeing with you about something would damage or fracture your mind-set. You know what I believe; I am open and forthright in my condemnation of the doctrine, so much so that several of its proponents here have ...[text shortened]... , but then again don't bleat like a lamb when I or someone else inadvertently misrepresents you.

No one ever succeeds communicating information beyond what the hearer/reader has acquired the capacity to understand.

Edit Note: Which begins with a genuine desire to know.