A question of honesty

Originally posted by josephw
This is a public forum.

I'm merely commenting on the obvious. Geester dishes it out. He should be able to take the criticism. What I said is true and honest.

So are you among "the worst" as well?

Originally posted by FMF
Where is your unequivocal statement of your beliefs regarding the 'eternal torture in burning flames for unbelievers' as propagated by the likes of sonship and Grampy Bobby? If you have stated what you make of the theology they promote, why not just point out where you did?

I have, numerous times. You should know. I posted what I believe to you as well. Can't you remember?

One thing about this forum that is true is the frequency of redundancy. There should be no doubt about what I believe. What is at issue is why, and I've made that plain as well.

The debates in this forum rarely stay on topic. These threads devolve rapidly into person attacks at every opportunity. This thread is a perfect example.

Originally posted by FMF
So are you among "the worst" as well?

Is being honest a character flaw?

Originally posted by josephw
I have, numerous times. You should know. I posted what I believe to you as well. Can't you remember?

Show me where. I remember you indicating that checkbaiter's 'there is not eternal torture' post may have changed your mind and that you would get back to us all once you'd thought it over. But I don't remember you doing so. Why not just link us to the posts where you believe you were unequivocal about it?

Originally posted by josephw
Is being honest a character flaw?

You said "...the worst are they that call themselves a brother and go out of their way to make a public spectacle of other Christians". You seem to be doing this to divegeester now. Are you somehow immune from your own stated definition of "the worst"?

Originally posted by josephw
There should be no doubt about what I believe. What is at issue is why, and I've made that plain as well.

Why not just show us where and remove doubt about what you believe?

Originally posted by josephw
These threads devolve rapidly into person attacks at every opportunity. This thread is a perfect example.

If you are against threads "devolving rapidly into person attacks at every opportunity", why are you attacking divegeester?

Originally posted by josephw
I have, numerous times.

Where? The references you provided a few days ago were to previous posts where I as already questioning you on this.

Why is it so hard for you to just state your belief here and now? Why all the deflection and dishonesty?

Originally posted by FMF
If you are against threads "devolving rapidly into person attacks at every opportunity", why are you attacking divegeester?

Josephw seems to believe that me challenging him on his beliefs about eternal suffering (whatever they are), is "Christian bashing". He reminds me of Galveston75 bleating on and on and on about victimisation when people questioned him on his beliefs.

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you agree with other posters in this forum such as Grampy Bobby and sonship, that non Christians will be cast into a lake of fire and burnt for eternity?

Edit: when you eventually summon up the courage to admit what you believe, I'll stop asking you.

Do you agree with other posters in this forum such as Grampy Bobby and sonship, that non Christians will be cast into a lake of fire and burnt for eternity?

In arguments about the lake of fire I have usually closed my points with this passage -

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Now, granted, I have quoted other passages in the discussion. I have spoken to many passages. But as a last word I usually end with Revelation 20:15.

If one's name is not recorded in the book of life, to the lake of fire that one goes.

Do I believe a person should not reject the Son of God ? Definitely, I believe that. I also believe atheism will not last forever. It will become an extinct belief.

But strictly speaking, the passages says "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

If the Holy Spirit wanted to put it differently, He would have had John write it differently, ie. - maybe mention "non-Christians". But it says "was not found written in the book of life".

I do not know all the ways at God's disposal
in which a person's name can be written in the book of life. But no one comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

Originally posted by sonship
In arguments about the lake of fire I have usually closed my points with this passage...

I know you enjoying trying to come across as a theologist of sorts, but you lost all credibility with me when you stated:

"the lost will be hung in chains of eternal punishment as a warning to those on other worlds"

And compounded this fruit-loopery with your explanation that the suffering in eternal hell of those who mistreat you, empowers you to forgive them.

Originally posted by josephw
What you say is true, but it's a matter of degree.

A degree of honesty. There are those who genuinely hate any faith based belief and vent their disdain in ways that are exstremely offensive. Their's is an emotional based form of expression, which hinders objective discourse.

But the worst are they that call themselves a brother and go out of their wa ...[text shortened]... aid by certain posters is embarrassing and does nothing to facilitate healthy respectful debate.

Joe, one additional biblical facet to add to your accurate delineation of the present scene which will eventually see the light of day in "God's person..." if and when it's able to continue: as human beings our point of contact with God is His Justice (Psalms 72:2; 1 Chronicles 16:14; Psalms 105:7). Justice and Righteousness [the Integrity of God] provide the ultimate safeguard of all divine action related to mankind. We adjust to the Justice of God or the Justice of God adjusts to us [as believers with blessing or discipline or as unbelievers with the absence of relationship in time and separation for eternity].

By application, believers in Christ are expected to redeem their time by apprehending the absolute truths revealed within the Word of God [epignosis doctrine: one built upon another] no matter how inconvenient they may be; not to presume to tweak and edit them to fit our preconceived notions or popular opinions. We are expected to grow in grace and to gradually acquire the Mind of Christ which certainly does not wink at or condone the behavior of believers who take it upon themselves to pass public judgment on other believers, sowing seeds of dysfunction and discord in the process. It's a fact that truth is foreign to ignorance and at first stings. As Mal Pancoast succinctly observed: "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
We are expected to grow in grace and to gradually acquire the Mind of Christ which certainly does not wink at or condone the behavior of believers who take it upon themselves to pass public judgment on other believers, sowing seeds of dysfunction and discord in the process.

Do you endorse or condemn josephw's accusations that divigeester is a liar ~ and that he is "the worst" kind of Christian ~ on this thread?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Edit: when you eventually summon up the courage to admit what you believe, I'll stop asking you."

How many times do I have to point to where I posted an answer to you before you summon the courage to read it?[/b]

You are being dishonest. If it was so easy to state your case you'd just do it instead of attacking me and pretending you have said something you in fact haven't.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
By application, believers in Christ are expected to redeem their time by apprehending the absolute truths revealed within the Word of God [epignosis doctrine: one built upon another] no matter how inconvenient they may be; not to presume to tweak and edit them to fit our preconceived notions or popular opinions.

What is your response to the material presented by your fellow Christian checkbaiter on Thread 161394 around page 4, and Thread 161363 also around page 4?