03 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou know this and I know this. Sonship knows it also. The interesting thing is how and why he won’t acknowledge it.
I think the answer is 'self-providing' when one considers what Lee has said about churches outside of his recovery movement and how he rejoiced in their apparent destruction.
@secondson saidThere is a huge appeal in spiritual exclusivism. The notion that one belongs to something special, a group more significant than the other run-of-the-mill-groups.
It is interesting isn't it that even atheists can discern the correct meaning of the plain text of scripture. For example: an individual sitting on a bar stool identifying himself as a Christian to the fellow sitting next to him who says, "if you're a Christian, then why are you here?"
I wish sonship could see that the idea of "recovery" coupled with the idea that "the L ...[text shortened]... gone throughout history and the "Church" still remains. It is vibrant and alive and quite invisible.
The cults dine off of it.
Edit: I circled the drain on this thinking in my early years as a Christian but became frustrated, then dismayed and then repulsed buy it. Eventually I saw it, exclusivism, man (flesh), everywhere and I left the denomination system completely.
03 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWow ! That sounds so magical , mystical and ,well , numerical it just must be true.
Absolutely, especially when that ordinary man is a sandwich short of a picnic.
A reminder of his lunacy:
"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added t ...[text shortened]... eation and then in the new creation, the church."
(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Revelation)
If he could add the Flying Spaghetti Monster then I could possibly get on board with it .
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03 Jan 20
@secondson saidI am accustomed to paddling in Christian pools, and even if the temperature of the water is not to my liking, I recognise an out of place fish when I see one.
It is interesting isn't it that even atheists can discern the correct meaning of the plain text of scripture. For example: an individual sitting on a bar stool identifying himself as a Christian to the fellow sitting next to him who says, "if you're a Christian, then why are you here?"
I wish sonship could see that the idea of "recovery" coupled with the idea that "the L ...[text shortened]... gone throughout history and the "Church" still remains. It is vibrant and alive and quite invisible.
To me, Lee bring external factors to Christianity that are alien to the real Christian message. - The obvious Hindu influence in the idea of man literally becoming God. - Take, for example, this extract from the Living Stream Ministry:
'Consider again the power in Hinduism. In Hinduism, some can walk on fire without being scorched. This is a fact. When they walk on fire, it is not for just a few steps, but for quite a long distance. Every step they tread is on red-hot iron; yet, they are not hurt. In Hinduism, some can also sleep on a bed of many pointed nails but without being hurt. Beginners cannot bear it and feel the pain. These are also related to the development of the power of the soul. Many wonders performed by believers are done with the same power as those in Hinduism.'
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=859V0Z1WWW2S5
03 Jan 20
@divegeester saidI read the page. Thing is though, that aside from disputes between individuals and groups, and a lot of politicizing and court rulings, there wasn't anything leveled at Witness Lee and the LCM that one could get a handle on with respect to false teachings. In fact Fuller Theological Seminary did an investigation and ruled thusly: "It is the conclusion of Fuller Theological Seminary that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent the genuine, historical, biblical Christian faith in every essential aspect."
I can’t get a straight yes or no response from sonship, maybe you can.
Does sonship or his church leaders draw any distinction whatsoever between Christians who are members of the local church, and other Christians who are not?
By the way, the controversies generated by the teachings of Witness Lee have their own dedicated page on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Church_controversies
But from what I've read, even in the link provided by sonship, I find Witness Lee's "interpretations" relative to the question of the "deification of man" quite troubling.
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03 Jan 20
1 edit
@SecondSon
Lots of responses. Some I would answer.
I wish sonship could see that the idea of "recovery" coupled with the idea that "the Lord has opened up to us the high peak of His divine revelation" smacks of the claim to apostolic authority not given since the first century.
You don't understand. For about a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church had the Bible locked away from the "laity". You have heard of "The Dark Ages".
Truth of Justification by Faith had not disappeared from the Holy Scriptures. But the light of this truth required the mercy and power of God to recover. It was not new light. Nor was it original thought of Luther. This recovery that led to "protests" and -Protestants with its deficiencies, was a moving of the Holy Spirit.
Do you regard the Reformation as involving the moving of the Spirit of God in any regard?
My second question to you would be, is the God of recovery that mercifully regained for His people the truth of Justification by Faith still the same God?
My third question to you would be, would you be presumptuous that there was no MORE neglected truth right there in the Bible to be recovered?
I can never forget the first time I attended a conferences of the local churches. I could not believe that God would DO something like this on earth. And the speaker said, and it still rings in my heart "He's moving ON! He's moving ON!"
God was moving ON. God is moving more to recover what the enemy of Christ and the church as sought to destroy, conceal, rob the saints of. Some of us simply want to move WITH Him.
How do you know whether you have assumed God has nothing else to recover in terms of the building of His church and the coming of the kingdom?
You should read the books about the return of Israel after the seventy years captivity in Babylon. You should go BACK and carefully read Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah. We have seen the tremendous relevancy to today those books have.
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03 Jan 20
2 edits
Many responses., some I can address.
It is a false assumption that gives rise to the claim of importance to certain specific individuals the scriptures do not endorse.
I am kind of amazed that the word "church" has become SO humdrum and common in the ears of people, that they do no appreciate how fantastic an entity the church really is.
If this word has become a "ho-hum" word like EVERYBODY of course knows what a church is, you might go to the Lord and ask him is you're missing something.
The church is a tremendous matter. Both the universal aspect and the practical aspect are tremendous matters.
I'm telling you. God went to China, to a "virgin" land as far as deeply rooted Christianity is concerned. God raised up some young seers to get a vision of the real nature of this "church" matter. But this is not new revelation.
Read your Ephesians for one month. The vision of the church may just change your life. Ephesians has been right there in the New Testament for centuries. God is shinning fresh light on it. And it is His business if He decided that this fresh light would not come from the "so-called" Christian civilization but from the Far East.
God shows that the life of the Body of Christ can not only flow from West to East in gospel missionaries. The life supply, the greatly NEEDED life supply of the Body of Christ can flow from the East to the West.
I believe God is speaking fresh light on this matter of the church. Many people find the word boring, or a nuisance not to be discussed, or taken for granted.
It takes revelation to see that Christ is the Son of the living God. Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal this to Peter, but His Father.
I have found that likewise to see the church is like to see Christ the Son of God. Flesh and blood cannot reveal this. The church is seen by revelation also.
I will come back to this.
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03 Jan 20
Jesus Christ is the central figure of the Bible, and whatever the Christian is he is subservient to His Lordship in all things, and is the recipient of all the benefits that come from above.
Yes indeed Christ is central to the whole Bible. But we have to go on to see that Christ and the church are central. It is not just Christ for INDIVIDUAL spirituality as the goal of God.
Divine Life is Christ. And Divine Life is for BUILDING.
I use to think that Christ was the center and all God wanted was scattered and individually spiritual good people. But this is shortsighted. Towards the end of this age we have to see more of God's purpose to build up the Body of Christ for the expression of Christ in a corporate entity. We also have to see that God HAS to have this before He can bring in the kingdom age.
We were not meant to be scatter gems stones. We were not meant to be precious stones in heaps. We were called to be living precious stones to be BUILT UP a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.
"Coming to HIm, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious,
You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:4,5)
Let me stop the quote there. We could go on. But here you can see that the building up of the spiritual house is on God's heart and on the apostle Peter's mind as well.
Living stones are not to be scattered but to be built up in love, in the divine life, in the divine coordination, and made for the spiritual house of the church.
God is moving to recover these matters. He is moving ON. The God of recovery, the God who ignited the Reformation in is positive spiritual aspects, is moving on.
I want to move with Him for the recovery of the building up of Christ AND the church as His will.
Any group, individual, denomination or institution that claims to hold to a "higher truth or special revelation" that hasn't already been dispensed in the scriptures, or that claims to have unlocked secrets or truths by some new revelation, is deluded and seeks to attract adherents for the purpose of control and the aggrandizement of themselves.
Would you not have said this hundreds of years ago when there was a new talking about "Justification by Faith"?
Maybe you would have said "We all know that we have to crawl up the steps leading to the Pope's seat and kiss his hand. Then we are right with God. What is this you are talking about - By grace you are saved through faith? Are you trying to invent some NEW and HIGHER revelation then what our priests and cardinals and clerics have told us?"
The same God is moving today to recover more. More needs to be recovered before His second coming. Some will go along with the move of the Holy Spirit to recover the ground of the church for the building up of the Body in a practical way.
I want to be one to receive such mercy from the Lord in the midst of strong, entrenched tradition. This is similar to the recovery of the Justification by Faith through the labors of Martin Luther.
God is moving ON SecondSon. Some of us want to be willing to move on with the God of recovery.
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03 Jan 20
I don't care how sincere they may think they are. In practical terms all they are doing is making converts to themselves.
The Gospel of salvation has not been changed by the Lord's recovery.
You have seen me write to typical unbelievers here.
I don't think you can say my basic Gospel announcement has been wrong.
Now to discuss some additional truths of Scripture you have some problems. But I think I have the Spirit of God. And I think I can consider what a unbeliever or perspective saved person is able to hear.
On the contrary. I think in some regards the Gospel I have announced to those who do not know the Lord Jesus here has been very clear.
And it is also good that people understand that GOD had a need. Our salvation is not merely because We have needs. God has His eternal purpose.
How good it could be if a sinner realizes that he is being saved unto the eternal purpose of God and not merely because he has a need. Ephesians is a book starting really from eternity past. It shows God's eternal purpose, God's eternal intention, God's plan and operation to have sons sharing His life and nature, without spot or blemish.
The Christian bookstores have many many books about "What is God's Plan for Your Life" type of writings. How often do you see something saying "What is God's Plan for HIS life ?"
Witness Lee helped us to see that God has a plan for HIS LIFE . We only thought WE were the center and we only cared for God's plan for "my life."
The Lord's recovery is about God's plan for God's life. Surely, God has a plan to meet your need and my need and her need. But has God no plan to meet the need He has ?
He needs to dispense Christ into a group of people building them up in the divine life and saturating them, permeating them, to woo Christ back for the establishing of His millennial kingdom.
Why don't you go to God in prayer thanking Him for His plan for YOUR life, but this time adding - Dear God, what about Your plan for Your life which you have put within me? I know you will meet my need. Lord Jesus, what is Your plan for Your life which you have imparted into me?"
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03 Jan 20
4 edits
People will flock to the idea that they will be deified and follow like blind sheep. Makes the carnal appetites happy. It's an appeal to the flesh.
Would that there would be "flocks" flocking.
There are not.
But now you are speaking against the revelation of the Bible. It says Christians have become partakers of the divine nature. And you want to suspicion this as a fad.
If "partakers of the divine nature" were a fad or something "gone viral" for a moment like an internet sensation, the Holy Spirit would not have uttered it through the Apostle Peter in Second Peter 1:4.
People flock to the sensational like blind sheep? I protest. I am not a blind sheep to lay hold of the precious promise there in Second Peter 1:4.
I had fierce temptations even this morning. Standing on the truth that I am a participant in the divine nature bring me into GRACE and overcoming. And collectively we can do the same - partake of His divine nature to fulfill His divine purpose of building up the body of Christ in prevailing local churches.
Would you have said all the brothers reaching out for the truth of Justification by Faith in Luther's day were silly blind sheep too ?
Okay, you think perhaps the Protestant Reformation was ALL that needed to happen to set things back to normal? How about maybe there is MORE that God of recovery needs to regain for His people ?
These "movements" have come and gone throughout history and the "Church" still remains. It is vibrant and alive and quite invisible.
Okay, SecondSon. I do not dispute some of this. I read "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbrent. He traced many many spiritual moves showing that from the first century there was always a group somewhere not settling down in a traditional way but were pilgrims on earth clinging to the purer strain of truth in the Bible.
So I do not disagree with you. But what about the time to come? What opposition awaits the church? What obstacles await the Christians.
What you see as a nuisance to the Christian public I see as God's sovereign preparation for things coming up against His people that we may not know of yet.
Witness Lee did so much teaching us to pray read the word of God - read / pray in a mixed way to thoroughly ingest, digest, masticate the words of the Bible with a prayerful attitude.
He did more than anyone else I know to teach Christians how to touch directly the Head of the Body - Christ, in spirit. He emphasized that every member has a direct connection to the Head.
We do not know fully what attacks and oppositions Satan will raise up against the Church in the coming years. I completely view this man's ministry as God sent to equip the believers against the onslaught of the world against the Christian life to come.
I stop here. God has graciously come beforehand to furnish and equip His church with what is needed to meet the times coming, including the great tribulation. When these things will happen, we do not know. But they will come. You know that.
And what you regard as a nuisance or fad followed by blind sheep, I see as the gracious God of recovery's foreknowledge and care to EQUIP His people with what they need to STAND in the world situation coming.
03 Jan 20
@sonship
Sonship sonship sonship!
I do wholeheartedly appreciate your passion. I agree with most of what you posted in the three posts above. I have no doubt that you and I are at the very least in agreement 97.5% of the time with what the Bible teaches.
I did not mean to get under your skin. I apologize if I have offended you.
Let's assume that you and I are sufficiently informed about church history and the "recovery" of certain aspects of the gospel during the last 4 or 5 centuries. But also the corresponding heresies that have sprung up over the last one and a half centuries.
Many teach a corrupt gospel, and many are being deceived.
So that brings me to my point of contention. The "deification" of man. Convince me. With The Word. And I will gladly receive it as Truth.
Deal? 🙂
03 Jan 20
@divegeester saidFire on the mountain...
Sand on the fire....
Long distance runner, what you standing there for?
Get up, get out, get out of the door
You're playing cold music on the barroom floor
Drowned in your laughter and dead to the core
There's a dragon with matches that's loose on the town
Takes a whole pail of water just to cool him down
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Almost ablaze still you don't feel the heat
It takes all you got just to stay on the beat
You say it's a living, we all gotta eat
But you're here alone, there's no one to compete
If mercy's a business, I wish it for you
More than just ashes when your dreams come true
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Long distance runner, what you holding out for?
Caught in slow motion in a dash to the door
The flame from your stage has now spread to the floor
You gave all you had. why you wanna give more?
The more that you give, the more it will take
To the thin line beyond which you really can't fake
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Grateful Dead
03 Jan 20
@secondson saidI’m unclear as you why you have posted this in reply to me?
Fire on the mountain...
Long distance runner, what you standing there for?
Get up, get out, get out of the door
You're playing cold music on the barroom floor
Drowned in your laughter and dead to the core
There's a dragon with matches that's loose on the town
Takes a whole pail of water just to cool him down
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain! ...[text shortened]... Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Fire! Fire on the mountain!
Grateful Dead
03 Jan 20
@divegeester
Fire on the Mountain, run, boys, run.
The Devil's in the house of the rising sun.
Chicken in the breadpan a picking out dough,
Granny does your dog bite, "No, child, no."
Charlie Daniel