A truly loving God...

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'd agree that it's extremely rare. I'd agree that we are "inherently selfish" and born "the center of our own universes". However, I believe that it can be overcome. I see it as maturity. We come into this world with only one point of view - our own. It's a difficult thing to get past.

I don't know if we can ever get past our own point of veiw. How we veiw other people will always be dependant. How is it possible to truely seperate yourself from your own perspective? Its all you will ever have.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
I don't know if we can ever get past our own point of veiw. How we veiw other people will always be dependant. How is it possible to truely seperate yourself from your own perspective? Its all you will ever have.

I guess I could have phrased things better. I was still talking about overcoming our ""inherently selfish" and being "the center of our own universes". I only brought up "our own point of view" to illustrate why it's inherent.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess I could have phrased things better. I was still talking about overcoming our ""inherently selfish" and being "the center of our own universes". I only brought up "our own point of view" to illustrate why it's inherent.

Ok, but still, how do overcome inherent selfishness? Is it not something that is deeply ingrained into humanity?

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Ok, but still, how do overcome inherent selfishness? Is it not something that is deeply ingrained into humanity?

I guess it basically comes down to understanding yourself and the world around you. A large part of it is understanding and learning to control desire.

The teachings of Krishna, Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha), Jesus, etc. all point to ways of accomplishing this with Siddhartha Gautama probably giving the most detail.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess it basically comes down to understanding yourself and the world around you. A large part of it is understanding and learning to control desire.

The teachings of Krishna, Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha), Jesus, etc. all point to ways of accomplishing this with Siddhartha Gautama probably giving the most detail.

I don't believe it is possible, as were are just empirical creatures - it doesn't seem likely that we have it in our simple selves to achieve anything so grand as goodness.

But may i ask, why is it a bad thing to be "selfish" anyway if it is a) normal and b) makes no difference to the effect on others?

Like the perfection of god which we seek but can never become - altruism is a concept which we can never achieve. i think your concept of maturity is a product of naivety.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Ok this is interesting.
You've gone with the humans are simply the amusment of a bored God. This is fair enough, I don't know if every Christian I know would agree that God is quite so trivial, but if there was a God, I certainly couldn't think of any other reason.

More interesting is your ideas about the omniscience of God. I have never heard this ...[text shortened]... any continuity at all, just a huge bunch of 'what I feel most comfortable with' ideas.

well this is how it should be. if i am to spend an eternity in hell it must be because i made a free choice, not because my life is predestined since God made the universe.

human beings can make random, unpredictable choices and i do believe that even though God may know all my choices he cannot know which one i will make. otherwise, this hole creation experiment is failed and god is as bored as he was before the big bang.

Originally posted by cpbrown
How does a god which exists outside of time have a concept of "futures" - you're making out that he's in the present and can't tell what decisions you're going to make in the future, however he exists in the future just as much as he exists now, so how can he not know what decisions you are going to make?

I think you are confused on this point. You've invented your god, surely it should be easy enough to abandon him?

excelent point you've made. my god model may need a few tweaks.

if we admit the possibility of multiple universes branching out from different result of any particular event (for example another universe in which hitler did not start WWII because he decided to write a cookbook instead of MeinKampf) then god would be able to retain knowledge of all the posssible futures and still not know whether i zahlanzi will choose at t=x and in wich universe i will end up at t=x+Planck_time


of course the above theory is just for kicks, an exercise of logic. and God is probably having some laughs(God has a sense of humour, not a always smiting attitude). i was only trying to see how could he be omniscient and we still have free will.

and of course, God does need to omniscient and omnipotent to be the top boss.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
of course the above theory is just for kicks, an exercise of logic. and God is probably having some laughs(God has a sense of humour, not a always smiting attitude). i was only trying to see how could he be omniscient and we still have free will.

And one must of course realize that such a model would totally contradict the usual assumptions of religion.
For a start, everyone would end up having an infinite number of copies in both heaven and hell.

Originally posted by cpbrown
I don't believe it is possible, as were are just empirical creatures - it doesn't seem likely that we have it in our simple selves to achieve anything so grand as goodness.

But may i ask, why is it a bad thing to be "selfish" anyway if it is a) normal and b) makes no difference to the effect on others?

Like the perfection of god which we seek but can n ...[text shortened]... oncept which we can never achieve. i think your concept of maturity is a product of naivety.

You're going to have to explain how it "makes no difference to the effect on others". I don't know that I can disagree more.

Just because it is "normal" to start off that way is irrelevant. It's also "normal" to start off being ignorant. It's also "normal" to start off having little control over ones emotions.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
excelent point you've made. my god model may need a few tweaks.

if we admit the possibility of multiple universes branching out from different result of any particular event (for example another universe in which hitler did not start WWII because he decided to write a cookbook instead of MeinKampf) then god would be able to retain knowledge of all the p ...[text shortened]... ave free will.

and of course, God does need to omniscient and omnipotent to be the top boss.

Why would God need to have complete knowledge of the future to be "top boss"? This makes little sense to me other than for people to be able to win "my god is more powerful than your god" arguments.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
well this is how it should be. if i am to spend an eternity in hell it must be because i made a free choice, not because my life is predestined since God made the universe.

human beings can make random, unpredictable choices and i do believe that even though God may know all my choices he cannot know which one i will make. otherwise, this hole creation experiment is failed and god is as bored as he was before the big bang.

Yes but still, as twhitehead said you're veiws are fairly contradictory to the general concensus of any major religion, Christianity included.

Even if the God you suggest is the 'real' version, God still knows that some people choise not to follow him and thus will end up in hell. With that knowlege I can't see why he would create at all, or even if he was so bored that he had to create, why not absolutly terminate the existance of those who end up in hell? Maybe they can't get into heaven by definition of what heaven is, but allowing his creations, that he supposedly loves, to remain in hell seems abhorrent.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
excelent point you've made. my god model may need a few tweaks.

if we admit the possibility of multiple universes branching out from different result of any particular event (for example another universe in which hitler did not start WWII because he decided to write a cookbook instead of MeinKampf) then god would be able to retain knowledge of all the p ...[text shortened]... ave free will.

and of course, God does need to omniscient and omnipotent to be the top boss.

How do you justify your beliefs with Christianity in general? Do you see them as compatible?

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
It isn't just that zero is greater then one, just because of the potential to become negative one. God knows exactly who will become negative one. Its not a potential, its a certainty. For those who end up negative one, of course zero would be better.
But even if it is just a capacity or potential you can't justify the torturing of some by the bliss o ...[text shortened]... becomes greater than one, simply because one has the capacity of becoming negative one.' ?

Everyone is born with their name automatically in the Book of Lives. Only those who consciously reject the grace provision of God will have their names blotted out. Once a person accepts the grace provision of God, their name cannot be blotted out, regardless of what happens following such acceptance. Therefore, the potential is really that everyone has been granted entrance into Heaven. Only those who choose against God end up in hell. Who is God to deny anyone their heart's desire?

Just for clarity, can you explain the lack of logic behind this statment: 'zero becomes greater than one, simply because one has the capacity of becoming negative one.' ?
No. My point was that there was no logic in such thinking.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Please explain what Gods justice is and why he violates it if he does not create.

Quite some time ago, I posted a thread outlining the attributes of God. Instead of going into the detail already covered, if you are truly interested, this ground is covered extensively there.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Everyone is born with their name automatically in the Book of Lives. Only those who consciously reject the grace provision of God will have their names blotted out. Once a person accepts the grace provision of God, their name cannot be blotted out, regardless of what happens following such acceptance. Therefore, the potential is really that everyone has ...[text shortened]... of becoming negative one.' ?
No. My point was that there was no logic in such thinking.[/b]

Jesus saw it differently:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'