Absurd Escapism

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
If we read Isaiah 1 we clearly see how the justice of God differs from the justice of man.
God says the Israelites have blood on their hands. But he doesn’t accuse them of killing anybody or even violating any of the Ten Commandments. Israel’s sin is never named; it is implied in how God tells themto correct their behavior: “seek justice, encourage the ...[text shortened]... son.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mercynotsacrifice/2011/05/16/gods-justice-vs-human-justice/

I'd dispute that no one owed the widows and orphans your copy and paste mentions. Consider this passage from Deuteronomy:

19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands. 20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. 21 When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. 22 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

AKJV Deuteronomy 24:19 - 20

This refers to a custom of ensuing foraging rights for the poor. This means that they have a reasonable expectation of left-overs and so they are owed something. Further, it is not only a feature of Mosaic Law. The Laws of Hammurabi, dated from around 1790 BC, specifically indicates in its epilogue that one of its purposes is to protect "widows and orphans" [1]. So I'd dispute the evidential basis of your copy and paste's argument. This motivation has been connected with more law codes than just the Mosaic one. I don't think you've demonstrated anything qualitatively different about divine justice.

[1] http://www.general-intelligence.com/library/hr.pdf

Originally posted by FMF
I don't understand how there is "justice" in a pedophile getting "undeserved mercy", please explain. If the pedophile were to taken to court and was then let off as a result of "undeserved mercy", where is the justice in that?

When we look at every other worldwide religion that also hold to the concept of a divine being, that being’s mercy is always exercised “at the expense of justice.”For example, in Islam, it is possible for Allah to show mercy to an individual, but it’s done by dismissing, or “brushing under the rug” (so to speak) the penalties of whatever law has been broken. “In other words, the offender’s punishment that was properly due him is brushed aside so that mercy can be extended.”The Allah of Islam, as well as every other deity in the non-Christian religions, set aside the requirements of moral law in order to for them to exercise mercy. Mercy is seen in opposition to justice. In a very real way, these religions allow for the old adage, “Crime does not pay” to be switched to “Crime can pay.”
Imagine if a human judge carried out this behavior, the majority would complain and most likely the judge would be disbarred and taken off the bench. It is the responsibility of a judge to make sure that the law is followed and that justice is provided. “A judge who ignores the law is betraying his office.”
Christianity is unique in that God’s mercy is shown “through His justice.”There is no brushing justice under a rug in order to make room for mercy. Christianity correctly teaches that penal substitution took place when sin and injustice were punished at the cross of Christ, “and that only because the penalty of sin was satisfied through Christ’s sacrifice does God extend His mercy to undeserving sinners who look to Him for salvation.”
And it is true that while Christ did die for sinners as an act of mercy and grace, He also died as an act demonstrative of God’s righteousness, in order to show His justice. This is precisely what the apostle Paul says: “All are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus (Romans 3:24–26).
Or to put it another way, God didn’t automatically punish sin before the time of Christ; instead, He extended mercy. But He did not merely gloss over justice. His righteous justice was demonstrated by Christ’s cruel death on the cross. At the cross, God’s justice was poured out in full directly on Christ, and God’s mercy was extended in full to all those predestined to believe. This was an act of God’s perfect mercy being exercised through His perfect justice.
So, how do we sum all of this up, by Jesus’ sacrificial death, all those who respond to God’s call of salvation, who trust in Christ and what He accomplished, are saved from God’s wrath and brought into His grace and mercy (Romans 8:1). As Paul says, “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/justice-mercy-is-god-bipolar/

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk

When we look at every other worldwide religion that also hold to the concept of a divine being, that being’s mercy is always exercised “at the expense of justice.”For example, in Islam, it is possible for Allah to show mercy to an individual, but it’s done by dismissing, or “brushing under the rug” (so to speak) the penalties of whatever law has been broken. “In other words, the offender’s punishment that was properly due him is brushed aside so that mercy can be extended.”The Allah of Islam, as well as every other deity in the non-Christian religions, set aside the requirements of moral law in order to for them to exercise mercy. Mercy is seen in opposition to justice. In a very real way, these religions allow for the old adage, “Crime does not pay” to be switched to “Crime can pay.” Imagine if a human judge carried out this behavior, the majority would complain and most likely the judge would be disbarred and taken off the bench. It is the responsibility of a judge to make sure that the law is followed and that justice is provided. “A judge who ignores the law is betraying his office.” Christianity is unique in that God’s mercy is shown “through His justice.”There is no brushing justice under a rug in order to make room for mercy. Christianity correctly teaches that penal substitution took place when sin and injustice were punished at the cross of Christ, “and that only because the penalty of sin was satisfied through Christ’s sacrifice does God extend His mercy to undeserving sinners who look to Him for salvation.” And it is true that while Christ did die for sinners as an act of mercy and grace, He also died as an act demonstrative of God’s righteousness, in order to show His justice. This is precisely what the apostle Paul says: “All are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus (Romans 3:24–26). Or to put it another way, God didn’t automatically punish sin before the time of Christ; instead, He extended mercy. But He did not merely gloss over justice. His righteous justice was demonstrated by Christ’s cruel death on the cross. At the cross, God’s justice was poured out in full directly on Christ, and God’s mercy was extended in full to all those predestined to believe. This was an act of God’s perfect mercy being exercised through His perfect justice. So, how do we sum all of this up, by Jesus’ sacrificial death, all those who respond to God’s call of salvation, who trust in Christ and what He accomplished, are saved from God’s wrath and brought into His grace and mercy (Romans 8:1). As Paul says, “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9). http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/justice-mercy-is-god-bipolar/

Do you have anything specific to say about relationship between a pedophile getting "undeserved mercy" on one hand and "justice" on the other? And how does the victim of the pedophile factor into all this?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
When we look at every other worldwide religion that also hold to the concept of a divine being, that being’s mercy is always exercised “at the expense of justice.”For example, in Islam, it is possible for Allah to show mercy to an individual, but it’s done by dismissing, or “brushing under the rug” (so to speak) the penalties of whatever law has been bro ...[text shortened]... m!” (Romans 5:9).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/justice-mercy-is-god-bipolar/

Are you going to write something for yourself or just ask irritating questions and copy and paste other peoples work? I have no evidence that you can think for yourself. I don't think you can. Tool.

Originally posted by sonship

Well, to begin with sir, I don't believe in reincarnation.

Okay. I don't either.

This was never about me personally dealing with or explaining about consequences from a previous incarnation.

Ask anybody ELSE. Ask someone who DOES believe in reincarnation.

[quote]
This was simply a correction of your own inte ...[text shortened]... t you are replaced with is a Void of "happy" nothingness.

But it is the aspiration of many.

So you've read Hesse. In that book Sidartra (however you spell it), it is clear that the main protagonist does not want to follow the Buddha despite having great respect for him Hesse is trying to say one size does not fit all. It's one of the main messages in the book, further highlighted by his interactions with his son and more importantly with the ferry guy.
edit: and btw you're just putting your own spin on what terms like Nirvana,etc. mean.
It is clearly stated that no human understanding can come close to understanding it, so I'm glad we got you. You can tell the Hindu/Buddhist scholars everywhere

Originally posted by LemonJello
Hey KJ, I have obtained a copy of The Divine Conspiracy: Rediscovering Our Hidden Life in God by Willard. It's about 400 pages or so, it appears. So, instead of getting bogged down, perhaps you could cite a few particularly significant chapters I could focus on first. I could do the same for the Joyce book....

1st chapter is about all I have time for now. We can start there I'll give you more later as
time is freed up for this.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Are you going to write something for yourself or just ask irritating questions and copy and paste other peoples work? I have no evidence that you can think for yourself. I don't think you can. Tool.

When you find yourself unable to refute a piece of text that someone posted, rather resort to personal insults instead. Very mature approach.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
When you find yourself unable to refute a piece of text that someone posted, rather resort to personal insults instead. Very mature approach.

What you appear to have been doing with some of your last few posts is spam bombing the conversation with copious copy pasted material in order to avoid specific points that have been put to you. Meanwhile, nobody has spam bombed you in an effort to avoid your points or questions.

Originally posted by FMF
What you appear to have been doing with some of your last few posts is spam bombing the conversation with copious copy pasted material in order to avoid specific points that have been put to you. Meanwhile, nobody has spam bombed you in an effort to avoid your points or questions.

Ah yes far better to 'spam them' with tens of thousands of posts from your posting history ey.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't understand how there is "justice" in a pedophile getting "undeserved mercy", please explain. If the pedophile were to taken to court and was then let off as a result of "undeserved mercy", where is the justice in that?

If someone else served their sentence they would be getting undeserved mercy from that person, and justice would prevail as someone else took their punishment upon themselves.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
So you've read Hesse. In that book Sidartra (however you spell it), it is clear that the main protagonist does not want to follow the Buddha despite having great respect for him Hesse is trying to say one size does not fit all. It's one of the main messages in the book, further highlighted by his interactions with his son and more importantly with the ...[text shortened]... to understanding it, so I'm glad we got you. You can tell the Hindu/Buddhist scholars everywhere

Well, your take on the book is interesting. And it has been a long time. I don't think i got exactly the same impression about the ending. But you could be right.

Anyway, this "One size fits all" matter has come up a few times. I do not think there is over restriction in God's plan of salvation. As I talk to various arguing atheists it seems to me that their view of who can know ultimate truth is far, far more elitist then the Bible presents.

To the average atheist that argues with me the qualifications for a person to know what the truth is about life is more than "one size fits all." Its more like ONLY my size will fit.

Nirvana? An Oversoul of some type I see in eastern mysticism. Absorption into a cosmic Oversoul in which individual is lost.

A Force or a Vibration was always more attractive to me than a Lord God.
But any Force or Field or Vibration to which I owe my origin or destiny is on a lower level of being than myself, I think.

It is attractive in some sense because it softens moral accountability.
"Use the Force Luke."

God is Someone, a Person like you can take your problem to. That was a revolutionary concept to me, the simplicity of which alluded me for some time.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Ah yes far better to 'spam them' with tens of thousands of posts from your posting history ey.

There are relatively few posts in my posting history that are over 200 words, and very few indeed that include copy pastes of text written by someone else. But I think you know full well what spam bombing a conversation is, and anyone following this conversation will be able to see exactly why you have done it.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
If someone else served their sentence they would be getting undeserved mercy from that person, and justice would prevail as someone else took their punishment upon themselves.

Huh? "Someone else took their punishment upon themselves"? How can that be "justice" for a criminal pedophile? What exactly is your definition of "justice"? You asked for mine and I gave you it.

Originally posted by DeepThought

Further, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The brain is responsible for storing memories. When we die these memories are destroyed.

You have to admit that by personal experience, you don't know that.

We see corpses rot, Yes. But by personal experience we don't know what takes place to our soul at death.

There is One who commands my astute attention on subject of life and death. That is Jesus, the one who came back from the dead. I HAVE to listen to Jesus and take His words seriously.

If the soul does not retain them,

But by personal experience, we don't know. All else is speculative.

especially in the case of amnesiacs, then you are faced with a cosmology where countless lost souls are being punished in Hell for things they do not remember doing. This seems contrary to notions of justice.

I am sorry. I count this as attempting to hunt for inconsistencies or logical weaknesses.

Even if we take scientific studies on near death experiences there seem to be some unexplanable matters. IE. totally unconscious minds having detail knowledge about certain things.

J P Moreland is collecting weird near death experiences and showing how some are confounding conventional wisdom.

You can reason as you would like. I have to take seriously the Man who demonstrates an authority in this realm. the One who said "I am the resurrection and the life."

I think I would be a fool to dismiss what Christ has to say about a realm in which He had experience yet we as of yet do not. At least none have come back to inform us.

This may be an argument on authority. But an argument based on authority is not necessarily wrong. It may be just not rigorous according to rules of logic.

Eventually, we all will trust someone. And you too, eventually you have to put your trust in someone.

If on the other hand the soul retains memories of one's current life then one might think that an amnesiacs soul retains memories that are not available to the organic person. So that we do not have access to previous lives does not imply that reincarnation is false or meaningless. Either there is a soul that can retain memories, in which case my reincarnation argument stands, or your cosmology inevitably has this problem that the souls being punished in Hell or rewarded in Heaven don't have the faintest idea what they are being punished or rewarded for.

I put ZERO confidence in any imagined scenario in which the God of the universe is "stumped" or at a loss how to proceed. Any arguments suggesting we can come up with a perplexing situation, mental or otherwise, which will have the Almighty baffled as to what to do, I put no trust in.

With Abraham, I also ask "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Gen. 18:25)

A rule of thumb for me - "Just because I am not TOLD everything, I don't put any trust in God being stumped or being too perplexed to judge rightly."

My policy is to move towards God based on what I AM told. I do not put any trust in pulling BACK from God with a hope in some logical loophole I think I can speculate about.

I am dealing with God.

Originally posted by FMF
Huh? "Someone else took their punishment upon themselves"? How can that be "justice" for a criminal pedophile? What exactly is your definition of "justice"? You asked for mine and I gave you it.

I would say justice is a theory by which fairness is administered, and whereby actions have consequences.