agnostic vs. atheist

Originally posted by telerion
[Okay. I was really just clarifying your point for myself.

Yes, but you forgot to drive home your arguement by saying that God eats babies!! 😛

Originally posted by telerion
BTW: Who says that free will ends in heaven?

It seemed to me that this must be the case or else people continue to sin in heaven.[/b]

It seems to me that people who wind up in heaven have already learned to live by faith one way or another. Also, I think once we reach the next phase things will be a little less confusing as well. I think Biblically there is a mystery to sin and perhaps it will be revealed for all to see. Actually we will have had first hand experience of its implications. For example, lets say I wind up in heaven and am confronted with the notion of sinning once again or perhaps another serpent is tempting me. In thinking about it I might reflect on past posts on these boards as a detourant from wanting to go there again. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
I can come up with reasons for this apparent contradiction. (Speaking of apparent contradictions, you don't suppose there are any others in the Bible do you?) 😛

1. There was no developed notion of an after life thus nothing was written about it. However, it gradually developed over time and climaxed during the time of Daniel and was thus formaly birth ...[text shortened]... does, in fact, have eternal consequences even if one does not believe in a God or an afterlife.

(Speaking of apparent contradictions, you don't suppose there are any others in the Bible do you?)

🙂

As for you notion that choosing life and death and blessing and cursing have to do with this temporal world as well, I offer no argument because I agree with this as well, however, I would simply argue that it has eternal implications as well. If nothing else you must concede that it implicates future generations as well.

I admit your possibilities. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they are among the rabbis’ arguments as well. My whole exegetical approach has been “rabbinic” (midrashic) in the sense of opening up the variety of possibilities, rather than closing them down into some strict doctrinal lines. It would be remiss of me to dismiss that when it comes back at me... 😉

Originally posted by whodey
It seems to me that people who wind up in heaven have already learned to live by faith one way or another. Also, I think once we reach the next phase things will be a little less confusing as well. I think Biblically there is a mystery to sin and perhaps it will be revealed for all to see. Actually we will have had first hand experience of its implications ...[text shortened]... I might reflect on past posts on these boards as a detourant from wanting to go there again. 😛

Then this seems to be a problem. It suggests that by giving humans more awareness, free will can exist in a sinless state. I apologize for leading you down this path subtly*, but my experience discussing the Free Will Defense to the Problem of Evil has led me to believe that this tactic is necessary.

I don't know how many times when I've claimed that a omnipotent god could have made Creation with humans that both have free will and never sin, a Christian will insist that such a scenario is impossible. "Free will cannot exist without sin," they will reply. "If no one sins, then God is not really giving us free will."
Now that's never made any sense to me, but it seems to be deeply engraved upon the minds of many Christians.

Anyway, here we have an example of a world (Heaven) in which no one sins and yet everyone has free will. This is extremely pertinent because the duration of the Earth is essentially zero compared to Heaven. It seems from your post above that billions of souls could have been spared eternal agony if God had just made the world a "little less confusing." So the question is why didn't God just make things more obvious to everyone from the start?





* - That's just an expression. I'm not really sorry. 🙂

Originally posted by telerion
Then this seems to be a problem. It suggests that by giving humans more awareness, free will can exist in a sinless state. I apologize for leading you down this path subtly*, but my experience discussing the Free Will Defense to the Problem of Evil has led me to believe that this tactic is necessary.

I don't know how many times when I've claimed that a ...[text shortened]... from the start?





* - That's just an expression. I'm not really sorry. 🙂

Perhaps creation needed the lesson to be learned. For example, people used to say that communism was what the world needed. So what method is most effective for showing that it is, in fact, not!! Should we form an army and forcably turn them into capitalists? If you did that in the back of their minds the question may linger as to what might have been if only those evil capitalists had not forced us off the road to freedom. No, I think the best method of showing that communism is not the answer to the worlds ills is to do what has happened and that is communism had its chance in the world and it fell flat on its face!!


Edit: I do realize that not everyone agrees that communism is not the answer to the worlds ills but in large part the message is loud and clear for most from what I have gathered. This example is just that, so please don't argue that this lesson has not been learned by all, rather, for the sake of arguement we will pretend that all people agree.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps creation needed the lesson to be learned. For example, people used to say that communism was what the world needed. So what method is most effective for showing that it is, in fact, not!! Should we form an army and forcably turn them into capitalists? If you did that in the back of their minds the question may linger as to what might have been if t been learned by all, rather, for the sake of arguement we will pretend that all people agree.

I agree that Communism is poor way to run a large economy.

Back to Creation though. Why should it need to learn a lesson? Where did that rule come from if not from God himself? If it did not come from God, then who or what writes rules for God?* If the rule did come from God, then it is not a constraint that he had to respect, rather it was a constraint he desired to impose. This means that a free will + no sin world could still have been possible. So why not choose it?

That's just one issue I have. The second is if the "lesson had to be learned" why couldn't God have taught it to everyone without the need to make billions suffer in unending, undescribable agony? Is this beyond his abilities? Is there a logical contradiction between free will and a more obvious Heaven and Hell?

* - the answer is "Muffy" of course.

Originally posted by whodey
Edit: I do realize that not everyone agrees that communism is not the answer to the worlds ills but in large part the message is loud and clear for most from what I have gathered. This example is just that, so please don't argue that this lesson has not been learned by all, rather, for the sake of arguement we will pretend that all people agree.

I am a bit of a socialist myself and don't necessarily support communism. However I thought I should point out that the USSR failed partly because it was a dictatorship and not really very communist at all and partly due to pressure from the US. I believe Cuba would also be a lot better off if it wasn't for interference from the US. I don't know whether China is still called communist but it is hardly a failure.
I come from a country which used to be humanist (or so it claimed) and then went capitalist. The result was the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. But of course in all the examples, the situation is far more complex than the form of government. But I think that you will find that even though many people dont support communism, the don't necessarily support and other single type of government. For example most muslims want a muslim government.

Originally posted by telerion
So your prefers a world with free will in which billions suffer in agony eternally, then one without free will in which no one suffers horribly.

Funny since this state has only infintesimal duration compared to heaven where surely no one has free will.

You want to write that a little clearer? I'm sure you are complaining,
but not sure of what.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You want to write that a little clearer? I'm sure you are complaining,
but not sure of what.
Kelly

I think his argument is along these lines:
1. Evil appears to exist in the world. (or suffering).
2. The explanation given by Christians is that evil is necessary for free will to exist.
3. Evil does not exist in heaven.
4. Therefore there is no free will in heaven.
5. Why do we get such a short time with free will and an eternity without it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think his argument is along these lines:
1. Evil appears to exist in the world. (or suffering).
2. The explanation given by Christians is that evil is necessary for free will to exist.
3. Evil does not exist in heaven.
4. Therefore there is no free will in heaven.
5. Why do we get such a short time with free will and an eternity without it?

Oh, I believe evil is possible in heaven, I believe me walking into my
kitchen taking out a knife cutting up my leg and serving strips of flesh
to my kids is also "possible" but it isn't going to happen.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Oh, I believe evil is possible in heaven, I believe me walking into my
kitchen taking out a knife cutting up my leg and serving strips of flesh
to my kids is also "possible" but it isn't going to happen.
Kelly

So the question is why does it happen on earth? The claim was along the lines of "it is a necessary requirement for free will that it happens."

Of course you are contradicting yourself by claiming something is simultaneously possible and not going to happen. There is a difference between "possible for anyone in that situation" and "possible for me in that situation". You are essentially saying that the people in heaven will be such that they cannot commit evil. So why then didn't God simply make all people that way in the beginning?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So the question is why does it happen on earth? The claim was along the lines of "it is a necessary requirement for free will that it happens."

Of course you are contradicting yourself by claiming something is simultaneously possible and not going to happen. There is a difference between "possible for anyone in that situation" and "possible for me in t ...[text shortened]... not commit evil. So why then didn't God simply make all people that way in the beginning?

It happened in heaven too, there was a war there you know according
to scripture.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It happened in heaven too, there was a war there you know according
to scripture.
Kelly

But you implied that it is not going to happen. Or is that just one of your imply then deny tactics?

And know I never heard about any wars in heaven in scripture. I thought Satan and some friends were naughty and got thrown out. I wonder what they did that was actually so bad? They could hardly have lost their faith. Did they say something rude about God? I haven't read the whole Bible.

Originally posted by telerion
This means that a free will + no sin world could still have been possible. So why not choose it?

Really, that is where we are now. We have free will to choose or not to choose sin. So your reason for choosing to sin is........?

So if God set things up so that no one would sin or could sin, would this not be a form of direct control and manipulation? If no one had sinned or ever would sin how could God make the claim that we really had free will all along?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am a bit of a socialist myself and don't necessarily support communism. However I thought I should point out that the USSR failed partly because it was a dictatorship and not really very communist at all and partly due to pressure from the US. I believe Cuba would also be a lot better off if it wasn't for interference from the US. I don't know whether C port and other single type of government. For example most muslims want a muslim government.

I knew I would get a post about the ins and outs of communism. Really I was only using it to drive home a point so please take it for what it is worth.