agnostic vs. atheist

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think his argument is along these lines:
1. Evil appears to exist in the world. (or suffering).
2. The explanation given by Christians is that evil is necessary for free will to exist.
3. Evil does not exist in heaven.
4. Therefore there is no free will in heaven.
5. Why do we get such a short time with free will and an eternity without it?

I would say first of all that evil does not exist. Evil is simply an absense of God's love in ones heart. Secondly, to say what will happen or not happen in heaven, God only knows so dispute it seems a bit premature, don't you think?

Originally posted by whodey
I knew I would get a post about the ins and outs of communism. Really I was only using it to drive home a point so please take it for what it is worth.

Well try for better examples next time. You cant drive home a point if your hammer is fundamentally flawed.
I had that problem in another thread where knightmeister was trying to explain something to me with analogies which did not demonstrate the point he was trying to convey. He said that that was the weakness of an analogy, but when an analogy misses the point or counters the point then it is worse than useless.
To were trying to show that some things must be learnt by trial and error and that the world learnt a lesson by trying out communism and then you ask us to take it as given that the world has learnt a lesson. You might as well have made democracy your example and then asked us to believe that everyone agrees that democracy is a failure.

Originally posted by whodey
I would say first of all that evil does not exist. Evil is simply an absense of God's love in ones heart. Secondly, to say what will happen or not happen in heaven, God only knows so dispute it seems a bit premature, don't you think?

OK so lets use suffering instead of evil. Is there suffering in heaven? If there isn't but there is free will, then why do we have free will on earth? Why are the people in heaven better than those on earth and why didn't God simply make people ready for heaven in the first place and forgo the whole suffering bit? Its almost as if he is playing the natural selection game - make a few trillion people rather carelessly and then discard all the bad ones.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You want to write that a little clearer? I'm sure you are complaining,
but not sure of what.
Kelly

Let "Dumb" be a world where humans have free will, but billions of them suffer eternally. Let "Smart" be a world in which no human suffers and no human possesses free will.

Your god prefers "Dumb" to "Smart."


"Dumb" can be partitioned into two components: 1) the finite component, when humans live on the Earth and 2) the infinite component, where humans live either in Heaven or Hell. The finite component has essentially zero duration compared to the infinite component. Free will only pertains to the finite component (where people make choices and sin). Therefore "Dumb" and "Smart" differ because "Dumb" contains free will for an infintesimally short length, but possesses torture for an infinite length while "Smart" never contains either free will or suffering.


Clearer?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Oh, I believe evil is possible in heaven, I believe me walking into my
kitchen taking out a knife cutting up my leg and serving strips of flesh
to my kids is also "possible" but it isn't going to happen.
Kelly

KJ, I have over the years claimed that God could have made a free will endowed universe like the one you describe (i.e. one in which sin is 'possible' but never actually obtains because no one chooses it). Christians say that that is not free will.

It seems to me the real condition is as follows:

It's not free will if the Christian is arguing against the problem of evil.
It is free will if the Christian is describing heaven.


In other words, you (Christians generally) claim it when it's useful for your argument, and you dismiss it when it is detremental for your argument. I don't think you do this knowingly. Rather defending your theology is more important to you than being consistent.

Originally posted by whodey
Really, that is where we are now. We have free will to choose or not to choose sin. So your reason for choosing to sin is........?

So if God set things up so that no one would sin or could sin, would this not be a form of direct control and manipulation? If no one had sinned or ever would sin how could God make the claim that we really had free will all along?

This is second part of the condition I wrote for KJ. You are doing exactly the same thing. Free will + no sin is possible when it's convenient to you, but impossible when it is not.


The point is that God knew of a world where humans had free will and enough awareness or in your own words sufficiently little "confusion" so that they never choose to sin*. That world belonged to his initial choice set of possible Creations. He chose not to make that world. Instead, he chose this one. Therefore he must prefer this world to a world with free will and no sinners.


* - It's important to understand here that no one is being forced to do anything. God just knows how much information it takes to convince a person that sinning is a bad decision. Therefore there is a level of "confusion" that is sufficiently small so that no one chooses to sin, despite possessing the ability to do so.

Originally posted by whodey
I would say first of all that evil does not exist. Evil is simply an absense of God's love in ones heart. Secondly, to say what will happen or not happen in heaven, God only knows so dispute it seems a bit premature, don't you think?

Actually KJ and you have both said that no one will sin in heaven. We're just taking you at your word.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its almost as if he is playing the natural selection game - make a few trillion people rather carelessly and then discard all the bad ones.

If an omniscient god did this, then it's worse than "careless." It's "calculated" and "cruel."

Originally posted by twhitehead
So the question is why does it happen on earth? The claim was along the lines of "it is a necessary requirement for free will that it happens."

Of course you are contradicting yourself by claiming something is simultaneously possible and not going to happen. There is a difference between "possible for anyone in that situation" and "possible for me in t not commit evil. So why then didn't God simply make all people that way in the beginning?

No, why is it a contridiction? Is it true I can walk into my kitchen and
do what I said, if I wanted too? It is also true that I can reject
such a thought and action on so many levels it isn't an issue or a fear
it is going to occur. God gave everyone the ability to do as they will,
that will not changed, that has not changed, the difference is everyone
will know what happens when they go their own way for selfish reasons.

The judgment falls on all evil, it is beng revealed at all levels that
there is no doubt what so ever what it does when it is followed. Think
for minute if you can buy into the war in Heaven where Satan and his
followers were kicked out, as you said, what was so bad? We see what
is so bad being played out among mankind right now! Evil goes to
the heart of all the things that kill and destroy among us, when we
strive against one another verses helping each other out, when we
look down on one another verses building each other up, it is plain
to see when we look at ourselves as one body attacking itself what
was wrong and why they were kicked out.
Kelly

Originally posted by telerion
Let "Dumb" be a world where humans have free will, but billions of them suffer eternally. Let "Smart" be a world in which no human suffers and no human possesses free will.

Your god prefers "Dumb" to "Smart."


"Dumb" can be partitioned into two components: 1) the finite component, when humans live on the Earth and 2) the infinite componen ...[text shortened]... gth while "Smart" never contains either free will or suffering.


Clearer?

You judge as you will.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
So the question is why does it happen on earth? The claim was along the lines of "it is a necessary requirement for free will that it happens."

Of course you are contradicting yourself by claiming something is simultaneously possible and not going to happen. There is a difference between "possible for anyone in that situation" and "possible for me in t ...[text shortened]... not commit evil. So why then didn't God simply make all people that way in the beginning?

God gave them the ability, you cannot fail if you were never setup
to pass. The same was true in heaven before the war, judment will
come on those that could have, but didn't.
Kelly

Originally posted by telerion
KJ, I have over the years claimed that God could have made a free will endowed universe like the one you describe (i.e. one in which sin is 'possible' but never actually obtains because no one chooses it). Christians say that that is not free will.

It seems to me the real condition is as follows:

It's not free will if the Christian is arguing again knowingly. Rather defending your theology is more important to you than being consistent.

God did give the ability to do right without failure, being subjected to
temptation does not mean one has to fall into sin, it only means that
one is subjected to temptation. If you believe I have said something
that goes against what I am saying now bring it up, should I defend
another's words unless I quote them? I don't always fall lock step with
other believers/Christians and that isn't saying we are not saved when
we disagree, I know I don't have all the answers, only God does.
Kelly

Originally posted by telerion
If an omniscient god did this, then it's worse than "careless." It's "calculated" and "cruel."

God isn't making tea pots, here is a good one there is a bad one, it
remains who so ever will may come. The issue is what holds people
back? Why would any have to go through that if the way was made
for everyone to be saved?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
God isn't making tea pots, here is a good one there is a bad one, it
remains who so ever will may come. The issue is what holds people
back? Why would any have to go through that if the way was made
for everyone to be saved?
Kelly

You must have decided that your God does not have perfect foresight.

Originally posted by telerion
You must have decided that your God does not have perfect foresight.

I believe He knows all that can be known.
Kelly