This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. ...
But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. And of every living thing, of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every kind shall come in to you, to keep them alive. Also take with you every kind of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them. [Gen 6:14–21]
OK So now we know how big the Ark is, and in that we are to place 5,000 species of reptiles, 9,000 species of birds, 4,500 species of Mammalia, -- 45,000 species in the phylum Chordata for each of which we require a pair (that's 90,000 animals from snakes to elephants, from birds to horses) before we worry about perhaps 10 million living species of insects... Of course all variants of the flu virus, including bird flu and the drug resistant infections that cannot have evolved so must have been there in the ark ...
And we are to collect kangaroos from Australia without a land bridge, The unlovable Sloth from South America (presumably via Alaska? and then through Russia?). Polar bears from the arctic. Penguins from the Antarctic. And of course all the food they may need. What food? For the lions how many antelope? For the crocodiles how many ... Perhaps they could all go on a brown rice diet - oh, where does Noah get his brown rice from?
Originally posted by Proper KnobThere's no flood evidence to back it up either. A flood of this magnitude and impact is not going to wash away without leaving a trace. Of course floods have happened and been large - an interesting theory is that there was a catastrophic flood through the Bosporus into the Black Sea which would have cause mayhem in areas relevant to the civilizations of the region. Mayhem but nothing like the destruction claimed in the Noah fable.
5,000yrs or 15,000yrs makes no difference, there's no genetic evidence to back either up.
Post when you're ready.
And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (6.5-7)
If we want to keep the Noah story then presumably we have to keep the God described there. He is a God that "grieves," and he is pretty vindictive when he gets angry. Not a very laid back guy at all. Indeed, one questions his wisdom - he creates all this stuff and it gets totally out of hand and so he smashes it up in a temper. He does stuff then he regrets it - why, whose plan was all this anyway? His plan. Where is the surprise? He knows it will happen. Apparently he monitors the daily flight patterns of every individual bird and not one falls without his decision to allow that. That bird in an airplane engine - His plan! Perhaps that makes sense. Perhaps we just have to get used to His ways, since He controls everything. In which case, be honest and stop telling us that actually He is lovable and loves us.
Also take with you every kind of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them. [Gen 6:14–21]
So that must include the potato. I thought Walter Raleigh brought that to Europe so presumably we get the potato into the Ark and then it goes back across the Atlantic again without leaving any growing this side of the Pond. So one of the Children of Noah must have kept that in his pocket pending the Dispersion - right?
Originally posted by finneganYour silly little game is at the naiveté level as expected of a junior high schooler, freshly armed with information about genetics and out to change the world.
Also take with you every kind of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them. [Gen 6:14–21]
So that must include the potato. I thought Walter Raleigh brought that to Europe so presumably we get the potato into the Ark and then it goes back across the Atlantic again without leaving any growing this side of the Pon ...[text shortened]... So one of the Children of Noah must have kept that in his pocket pending the Dispersion - right?
Has truly nothing happened over the course of the last several thousand years?
Jesus took the story of Noah's flood seriously. If He took it seriously I feel that I should also take it seriously.
Here is where He refered to the account:
"For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, maeeying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark.
And they did not know [that judgment was coming] until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:37-39)
The message here is that up until the time of world wide judgment, men and women will be befuddled and insensative to the empending judgment. Millions will consider it business as usual. And scoffers such as yourself will urge them on that they needn't pay attention to the Bible's warnings.
Up until the day sinners are swept away by whatever form of judgment God brings upon the earth, scoffers will accumulate their reasons why God is not able to do what He warned of then or now.
The Apostle Peter also warned us saying:
"Knowing this first, that in the last of days mockers will come with mocking, going on according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue in this way from the beginning of creation.
For this escapes them by their choosing, that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth was compacted out of water and through water, through which the world then, being flooded with water, perished.
But the heavens and earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2 Pet. 3:3-7)
I am definitely placing my confidence in the integrity of Jesus Christ and His apostles. Christ said that His words were so reliable that they could outlast the very physical universe itself:
"Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:34,35)
You have another way to live ? You go ahead and live by your way. Some of us are going to live in the light of the words of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIs it silly to try and envisage - in a thought experiment - how it could be that all life was destroyed in a flood and then the World was re-stocked from Noah's Ark? Or is it silly to think that Noah really did rescue from the Flood two of every kind etc etc. Or is it just silly to think?
Your silly little game is at the naiveté level as expected of a junior high schooler, freshly armed with information about genetics and out to change the world.
Has truly nothing happened over the course of the last several thousand years?
If the story of the Ark is silly - or it is silly to claim it is True - then my example is not silly, because it helps demonstrates that point.
If the story of the Ark is True then my thought experiment is not silly - it is a reasonable thing to ask. And you seem eminently qualified by direct, personal experience of revelation (earlier post from you) to clarify this for me.
And naturally the manner of your response will be informed and shaped by your Christian virtues.
Originally posted by finneganWas there a question in there?
Is it silly to try and envisage - in a thought experiment - how it could be that all life was destroyed in a flood and then the World was re-stocked from Noah's Ark? Or is it silly to think that Noah really did rescue from the Flood two of every kind etc etc. Or is it just silly to think?
If the story of the Ark is silly - or it is silly to claim it is ...[text shortened]... nd naturally the manner of your response will be informed and shaped by your Christian virtues.
Originally posted by jaywillI have no doubt Jesus did take the Jewish religion and its teachings very seriously, including Noah's little boat with its 90,000 animals and their food supply. For this reason I find it difficult to argue with Christians who claim that the only thing they care about is the New Testament. The New Testament makes less sense if it is divorced from its context.
Jesus took the story of Noah's flood seriously. If He took it seriously I feel that I should also take it seriously.
[b]"Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:34,35)
You have another way to live ...[text shortened]... and live by your way. Some of us are going to live in the light of the words of Jesus Christ.[/b]
It is interesting to read how there have been false prophets in every generation who think it is the one referred to in your quoted passage. It would be amusing if they reserved their strange beliefs to their own lives - perhaps seeking to become better Christians. It is less amusing when we realize that a growing proportion of citizens of the largest military power on the planet have a disturbing fondness for tales of the last days with its associated terrors. Bush caused international anxiety when he expressed his interest because in a sane World, nobody would risk the provocation of a nuclear holocaust but in your freaky world I am not sure that we trust Americans any more to hold back. And people of your strange belief system appear to be consciously provoking intense conflict in the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there. You are dangerous and deluded.
Originally posted by finnegan=============================
I have no doubt Jesus did take the Jewish religion and its teachings very seriously, including Noah's little boat with its 90,000 animals and their food supply. For this reason I find it difficult to argue with Christians who claim that the only thing they care about is the New Testament. The New Testament makes less sense if it is divorced from its context ...[text shortened]... the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there. You are dangerous and deluded.
It is interesting to read how there have been false prophets in every generation who think it is the one referred to in your quoted passage. It would be amusing if they reserved their strange beliefs to their own lives - perhaps seeking to become better Christians. It is less amusing when we realize that a growing proportion of citizens of the largest military power on the planet have a disturbing fondness for tales of the last days with its associated terrors. Bush caused international anxiety when he expressed his interest because in a sane World, nobody would risk the provocation of a nuclear holocaust but in your freaky world I am not sure that we trust Americans any more to hold back. And people of your strange belief system appear to be consciously provoking intense conflict in the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there. You are dangerous and deluded.
=================================
Sounds like a rebuttal in search of a debate.
Originally posted by finneganAnd people of your strange belief system appear to be consciously provoking intense conflict in the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there.
I have no doubt Jesus did take the Jewish religion and its teachings very seriously, including Noah's little boat with its 90,000 animals and their food supply. For this reason I find it difficult to argue with Christians who claim that the only thing they care about is the New Testament. The New Testament makes less sense if it is divorced from its context ...[text shortened]... the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there. You are dangerous and deluded.
Ever hear of Western Civilization?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIs there a question in that absurdity? What I mean is not grammatically, but in any sense that merits a response? I do not equate American religious fundamentalism with Western Civilization, which ranges from Archimedes to Chartres Cathedral to Newton to James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - something you might well benefit by reading.
And people of your strange belief system appear to be consciously provoking intense conflict in the Middle East, appearing to gloat over the provocations there.
Ever hear of Western Civilization?[/b]
Originally posted by FreakyKBHCurious.
Was there a question in there?
Yet again our discussion on the biblical flood has taken exactly the same course. I tell you there is no genetic evidence for the flood myth, you tell me the genetic evidence backs up the biblical account, i ask you what your version of the biblical account is and........................you disappear. Although this time you did crack a joke.
I've been so kind to answer your questions about 'my' thoughts on flood mythology, maybe you could do the same and reveal what you think happenned?!
Some differences from the Genesis flood account and the Gilgamesh account:
The Gigamesh account differs most profoundly in the powers behind the flood. The gods of Gilgamesh send the flood not to protect mankind from its own evil but to destroy mankind for no apparent reason. Their action is arbitrary.
In the Genesis account God's sending of the flood is for the benefit of saving human society from the further spread of a gangrene like corruption. It is remedial and it is to afford mankind a new beginning.
In the Gilgamesh tale once the flood is under way, these punishing gods flee in terror to the upper regions of heaven. They hide there crouching like terrified dogs. And the flood ends in a matter of hours.
The Gilgamesh gods differ greatly from Yahweh. The steady downward slide of moral degradation is caused my man's taking in the sinful nature in Genesis as the wrong choice of his own free will. The Gilgamesh gods manifest ignorance, weakness, fear, and other human weaknesses.
The Gilgamesh tale is far less scientically plausible. The Genesis ark had a stable shape for flotation. Utnapishtim's cubical ship (200 feet by 200 feet by 200 feet) would be neither seaworthy nor water stable.
The rain in the Gilgamesh accounts lasts only six days. Utnapishtim's cargo differs from the Genesis 8 humans and pairs of all bird and mammal species associated with humanity. (Hugh Ross argues for a limitation of animal species with indications of the Hebrew language account). The cargo of the Gilgamesh account is all Utnapishtim's kinsmen, all his society's craftmen, all the cattle and beasts of the field, and the seed of all living things.
The epic's very existence lends additional credence to the Genesis story.
There are more than 80,000 flood accounts in 70 some langages describing a cataclysmic deluge according to astrophycist Hugh Ross in his book The Genesis Question. Over 85% of them mention a large vessel that saved the human race from total extinction. The abundance of these stories, regardless of the dating of the discovered written source, point not only to an interesting early history of man. They point to the collective memory of some unprecedented Flood catastrophe. Somehow the event was firmly etched into the minds of ancient peoples.
As I have time I will explore the genetics issue of which I know nothing.