Originally posted by finneganLet's take a second pass over this one:
You say in an earlier post on this thread "it is plain for all to see." I would prefer to establish some agreement about what we are reading in the Bible - that is hard enough without complicating matters.
On a fairly reasonable and uncomplicated reading of the Noah story I remark that it indicates explicitly a God who regrets his own work, a creation th y do appear they do their little task and get quickly out of sight" is suddenly hilarious.
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On a fairly reasonable and uncomplicated reading of the Noah story
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I agree that God has given man an account that a large majority of people can understand. I think even a 1rst grader can grasp the essentials of the story.
Some people regard simplicity as naivete. I do not when it comes to the Bible. I regard God as trying to communicate with the most number of people. I do not mistake the simplicity of the Noah story with childish naivete.
But that is really not your point.
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I remark that it indicates explicitly a God who regrets his own work, a creation that has not gone to plan,
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I think that a basic hatred of God for sin has to be established in the Old Testament. Otherwise we would not appreciate that in Christ the Son of God, God judged ALL of our sins on His cross at Calvary.
The backround of God's hatred for sin is needed to better appreciate that He gave His righteous Son to be the object of judgment for sin on behalf of all mankind.
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a rage which punishes the whole population of the Earth and in general a God that is pretty hard to reason with and dangerous when angry.
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I so not see a "rage" that is totally without limits. Even in this judgment of God I see self control.
When people try to impress me with a raging and petty deity I point out to them the book of Jonah. Here is one entire book in the Old Testament dedicated to the lesson of God's reluctance to have to punish a nation.
I think one should continue reading and balance his view of God in the Genesis 6 story with the book of Jonah. God does the right thing at the right time in the right way. That is the overall message I get from the Old Testament.
I do not see an out of control raging God. And the whole idea that if God were really loving he would allow man to sin as much as he pleases, is ridiculous. Where is the love in the withholding of righteous justice ?
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All of these qualities I find anthropomorphic and primitive. That makes sense in terms of social history and anthropology but no sense in terms of modern proclamations about the perfect God. It is entertaining but not edifying.
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I totally disagree here. I think my reasons have already been stated.
1.) The prolonging of time to repent
2.) The salvation extended to a remnant
3.) The further revelation of books like Jonah - God's reluctance to judge.
4.) The establishing of God's hatred for sin as a backround to seeing His love
in coming in Christ to die for our sins.
5.) The placing of the history early so that billions of us in latter generations might be warned and edified.
This won't wash Jaywill. If divine justice entails the eternal torments of hell as depicted in too many places then I am afraid that is not proportionate and hence it is not just. There are too many collective punishments. There are too many traps and the greatest of these is the attitude towards intelligent, independent thinking. If I remember rightly, those cheeky demons, after the flood, were not all locked away but a number were left free to provide further temptation. There is too much power given to Satan and his little friends, against which human wisdom is at a definite disadvantage. I could go on.
However, on this you have made your view clear already. We disagree and I am reminding you of my position.
In order to sustain your conviction that God is just, you have - of necessity it seems - introduced me to the strange plethora of angels and demons, their battles and adventures in a spiritual universe separate from our own. I fully accept that this is all in the Bible or closely related to that source (see earlier). I can quite see how people become absorbed in their bible studies and fascinating it must be. In exchange you will concede that this stuff gets more and more complicated, tortuous and distant from anything we can directly scrutinize - we just have to accept this stuff or reject it.
The bible has scooped up a lot of other people's legends and myths in its path. It has indeed sought to fit them together into an internally consistent narrative and that is ingenious in its way. It is widely (ie not just among believers) admired as a cultural artifact.
Demonstrating the extensive borrowing in the bible does not prove that it is a fabrication, but it does expose the possibility that it is no more (nor less great as a result) than the product of a particular group in a particular cultural environment. It is consistent with my belief that this is a human, social and cultural product that does not require - or necessitate - the claim that is it Revealed. It makes adequate sense in its historical context and it does not require supernatural explanations.
That was my theme in this thread and it survives intact.
Whatever the historical status of this book, the attempt to sustain it as a source - even a sufficient source - for modern humanity is misguided and dangerous. Sadly this project falls apart under its own weight. Recall that the great library at Alexandria was destroyed - and countless intellectual treasures lost forever - on the orders of a general who argued that everything we need to know is in the Koran - we do not need any other book. the attitude is similar if not identical. It demands too much of this or any book that it contain the sum of all wisdom and it cannot possibly replace the continuing responsibility of the human race (just the one race) to make full use of its greatest quality - which is the ability to think creatively and constructively and critically.
Am I arrogant? I am with my hero James Joyce, at the close of his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - I will not serve.
Originally posted by finnegan===========================================
This won't wash Jaywill. If divine justice entails the eternal torments of hell as depicted in too many places then I am afraid that is not proportionate and hence it is not just. There are too many collective punishments. There are too many traps and the greatest of these is the attitude towards intelligent, independent thinking. If I remember rightly, th ...[text shortened]... ro James Joyce, at the close of his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - I will not serve.
This won't wash Jaywill. If divine justice entails the eternal torments of hell as depicted in too many places then I am afraid that is not proportionate and hence it is not just.
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Man has a vested interest in preserving his sinful self and cannot be trusted to determine what the penalty should be for rejection of Christ. If we were to assemble all the rapists and ask them to vote on what the penalty should be for rape, perhaps they would vote that there should be no penalty. Or perhaps they would vote that it should not be too heavy.
You see, they have a vested interest to excuse themselves. And sinful men cannot be trusted to decide what penalty God should enact for rejection of Christ's salvation.
But let's not get things confused. The advent of eternal punishment is not elaborated on at all in Genesis or Jonah. And all discipline to sinners should not automatically indicate eternal perdition.
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There are too many collective punishments.
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Says who? What gives you the authority to decide how many collective punishments are too many ? Perhaps you should admit that you have a warped bias of Scripture so that among so many other things written you tend only to notice punishments.
In that case you simply fail to notice that many other things are going on in the Bible. And for every act of punishment I could probably match you with a passage about God's longsuffering and mercy.
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There are too many traps and the greatest of these is the attitude towards intelligent, independent thinking.
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What do you mean by "traps" ? There are 150 Psalms. Have you read all these Psalms? Would you say that there is nothing in these Psalms but "traps" ? In these 150 Psalms I see many many instances of God rescuing someone from traps and snares.
As for the paranoia that the Creator Who created my mind turns around and forbids me to use it, that seems ludicrous.
Each of the writers of the Bible has his own flavor. Each has his own distinct style. There is poetry, there is history. There is analogy, there is parable. There are laws. And even suggestions proposed by five women became sacred statutes in the case of the five daughters of Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11).
Would you say in the case of the five daughters of Zelophehad no independent thought was allowed ? Their case was so good that Moses had to amend the law of God to cover thier kind of complaint.
In fact when harmony with God is developed He even requests that His sons would command Him as what to do?
"Thus says Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him, ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concerning the work of My hands, command Me." (Isa. 45:11)
Here God requests that His people would command Him. The same motive is repeated in the New Testament - "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."(John 14:13,14)
You just have to face the fact that some of us want to use our independence to love and serve God. And Scripture shows that to such as are in harmony with His will to a great degree God stands with their choices.
Adam named all the animals (Gen. 2:18-20) That proves that he was created with some freedom of mind to superintend the creation. Had God intended man to have no freedom of the use of his intellect He would have simply informed Adam what all the names of the creatures were.
Your other comments I will reply to in another post.
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If I remember rightly, those cheeky demons, after the flood, were not all locked away but a number were left free to provide further temptation.
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You do not remember all that accurately. The fallen angels are not demons. They are two different kinds of beings.
It is true that not all of the evil angels were locked away in Tartarus. You point?
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There is too much power given to Satan and his little friends, against which human wisdom is at a definite disadvantage. I could go on.
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And I could go on about how Christ has overcome them all. Yet this victory of Christ is given for the church to administer.
While you are wasting time sitting around whining that evil angels are still on the loose, some of us have another reaction. We stand of Christ's overcoming victory and daily see Satan defeated in our lives and deliver sinners into the kingdom of God.
In the end you will see that you have spent wasted years faulting God. While many of us have spent precious time to allow Christ's victory to be worked out in our lives. What a waste of a life, to be a factory of futile compliants against the victorious Son of God.
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However, on this you have made your view clear already. We disagree and I am reminding you of my position.
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If you build your house on the words of Jesus you are as a man who built his house on a rock. The winds, the rain, the flood will not be able to topple the house built on a rock.
If you do not build your "house" on the words of Jesus you are like a man who built his house upon the sand. And eventually the fall of that house on that foundation will have a great fall.
See Matthew 7:24-27.
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In order to sustain your conviction that God is just, you have - of necessity it seems - introduced me to the strange plethora of angels and demons,
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If you recall, I was hesitant to get into the subject matter that Freaky brought up. If you recall, you requested that I comment on the subject.
Now that I have commented (and with a caveat as to what is really important) you turn around and say I have necessity to talk about it.
Anyway, on these forums, I talk a lot more about Jesus Christ Himself then any other side issues from the Scripture. I doubt that there is a poster who mentions Christ the centrality of the Bible as much as I.
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their battles and adventures in a spiritual universe separate from our own. I fully accept that this is all in the Bible or closely related to that source (see earlier). I can quite see how people become absorbed in their bible studies and fascinating it must be. In exchange you will concede that this stuff gets more and more complicated, tortuous and distant from anything we can directly scrutinize - we just have to accept this stuff or reject it.
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I think that when you read something in the Bible and the Holy Spirit impresses it upon your conscience, if you walk in that light, then further light will be given to you.
This has always worked well with me. But instead of picking up curiosities I pray over what I read. Like looking for uranium with a detector. When my spirit moves at some words of the Scripture which speak to my life, I try to walk in that light that I have received.
When I walk in the wisdom and light that God has granted me such that my life is touched, then that obedience affords God a way to grant me more light.
You may read many words in the Bible. Perhaps only a few sentences will seem to leap off the page and speak to your heart. These you should follow up in prayer and confession.
Spot on, jaywill.
The only reason the subject of the Nephilim was even broached was because the Knobster asked for my summary of the Flood. For that account, the Nephilim was a necessary component.
It is decidedly not an issue with regards to salvation. With respect to salvation, the only issue is this: what say you of the Christ?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIt is an interesting issue. And it is relevant or the Spirit would not have included it is the record.
Spot on, jaywill.
The only reason the subject of the Nephilim was even broached was because the Knobster asked for my summary of the Flood. For that account, the Nephilim was a necessary component.
It is decidedly not an issue with regards to salvation. With respect to salvation, the only issue is this: [b]what say you of the Christ?[/b]
I think your input is very helpful to the seeker of truth.
Originally posted by jaywillAgreed. What makes the topic even more interesting is to see the reaction of those in opposition to God: it acts as a mini-stumbling block, as it were. To hear the scoffing is to smell the rain in the air...
It is an interesting issue. And it is relevant or the Spirit would not have included it is the record.
I think your input is very helpful to the seeker of truth.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHTo be honost often times when I am talking to skeptics I wonder to myself "It is amazing that I actually believe the Bible."
Agreed. What makes the topic even more interesting is to see the reaction of those in opposition to God: it acts as a mini-stumbling block, as it were. To hear the scoffing is to smell the rain in the air...
I think God has had mercy on me.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWell you two have found kindred spirits. Sweet. I have certainly scoffed at times and by all means found your material a stumbling block - mainly in the sense that it is difficult to stick to a line of argument with people who switch into so many slippery side alleys. I must learn to simplify my comments more and prevent such distractions from the point.
Agreed. What makes the topic even more interesting is to see the reaction of those in opposition to God: it acts as a mini-stumbling block, as it were. To hear the scoffing is to smell the rain in the air...
Anyway I enjoyed the debate. Regardless of the level of disagreement, it was at least courteous and constructive as far as it went.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH===================================
Agreed. What makes the topic even more interesting is to see the reaction of those in opposition to God: it acts as a mini-stumbling block, as it were. To hear the scoffing is to smell the rain in the air...
To hear the scoffing is to smell the rain in the air...
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What came upon that world of Noah, no one had ever seen before.
Likewise, what is about to come upon this world has also never been seen before.
Originally posted by finneganDemonstrating the extensive borrowing in the bible does not prove that it is a fabrication, but it does expose the possibility that it is no more (nor less great as a result) than the product of a particular group in a particular cultural environment. It is consistent with my belief that this is a human, social and cultural product that does not require - or necessitate - the claim that is it Revealed. It makes adequate sense in its historical context and it does not require supernatural explanations.
This won't wash Jaywill. If divine justice entails the eternal torments of hell as depicted in too many places then I am afraid that is not proportionate and hence it is not just. There are too many collective punishments. There are too many traps and the greatest of these is the attitude towards intelligent, independent thinking. If I remember rightly, th ...[text shortened]... ro James Joyce, at the close of his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - I will not serve.
That was my theme in this thread and it survives intact.
You demonstrated so such "borrowing," but merely 'revealed' what has been known for a long, long time. Namely, some of the big themes discussed in the first five books of the Bible can be seen in extra-biblical sources. The very nature of these themes necessarily requires supernatural intervention (creation certainly did not create itself; world-wide flood devastation doesn't happen on a cyclic basis, etc.).
There is nothing within the biblical account to suggest the narrative is culturally-derived. Such nonsense thinking considers only what fits within a short-sighted view, desperate for a sanitized negating counter to the otherwise obvious statements within. A culturally-derived history is replete with embellishments/exaggerations intended to persuade others of the greatness of the group in view, omitting any failures or shortcomings. Instead, we see a nation of nomads which itself rose from among Gentiles. Adam, Noah, and any believer between them and Abraham were decidedly not Jews. Abraham himself was not born a Jew.
Your theory falls far short of its stated goal.
Sadly this project falls apart under its own weight.
Your feigned emotional reaction is pathetically condescending with the added benefit of revealing your general cluelessness about antiquity and the Bible's role thereof.
It demands too much of this or any book that it contain the sum of all wisdom and it cannot possibly replace the continuing responsibility of the human race (just the one race) to make full use of its greatest quality - which is the ability to think creatively and constructively and critically.
The Bible's unique position as the source of wisdom was established long before you came onto the scene and its position will remain long after you depart. Just ask Voltaire. Presumably, however, there is some source outside of it which either matches or surpasses it in wisdom: I, for one, am in enthusiastic anticipation to hear of these repositories.
Oh, and by the way: throughout the Bible, God implores man to reason, to think, to study. To say otherwise---as you have here--- again simply shows how deplorably little you know of the books within that book.
Am I arrogant? I am with my hero James Joyce, at the close of his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - I will not serve.
I'll leave you with the words of one Bob Dylan:
Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk,
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk,
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread,
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH"Non serviam" was the correct phrase, I think.
I'll leave you with the words of one Bob Dylan:
Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk,
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk,
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread,
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna h ...[text shortened]...
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody.