@fmf saidThat which is privately verified is just as relevant to the people who experienced it as other information that is only publicly verifiable.
Jesus's purported miracles are cited as evidence of his divinity. Are miracles that only "exist" in the personal reality of an individual also evidence of divine power and actions?
The sole eyewitness to a thing need not bothered by the fact others did not witness it.
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@philokalia saidWhat about "the Church" you were referring to? Is there an official list of "real" miracles that have happened over the centuries since Jesus's death?
Of course there will be fraudulent claims of miracles because it empowers people if it is believed that they were conduits of miracles, or that their locale is a host to miraculous events.
But the fact that there are fake Gucci bags does not mean that there are no real Gucci bags.
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@philokalia saidWhen all is said and done, does it really matter if the miracles celebrated by "the Church" you mentioned were real or fake?
But the fact that there are fake Gucci bags does not mean that there are no real Gucci bags.
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(1) No, there's no official list that I am aware of...
(2) If the church mistakenly celebrated miracles, it would not be that bad. The Church is, after all, made up of people.
We have had issues where we had priests and even Bishops that were involved in financial or sexual scandals, and we will always have problems in the church because it is made of men.
What matters is that we maintain the right theology and continue to function as a hospital for souls. ^^
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@philokalia saidWhat's your response to the Benny Hinn question on page 1?
(1) No, there's no official list that I am aware of...
(2) If the church mistakenly celebrated miracles, it would not be that bad. The Church is, after all, made up of people.
We have had issues where we had priests and even Bishops that were involved in financial or sexual scandals, and we will always have problems in the church because it is made of men.
What matters is that we maintain the right theology and continue to function as a hospital for souls. ^^
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@fmf saidA few times I have seen those crazy videos of him... and I remember learning that he is actually of Lebanese descent, I think, which means he presumably left a Catholic or Orthodox tradition to become a Protestant (I seem to recollect he was not Muslim)...
What's your response to the Benny Hinn question on page 1?
I think the guy is likely a charlatan, though I do not discount the idea that some have been moved by him in some capacity, which could have been the source of all the following displays that I think are quite maddening and staged. But I don't know. I don't want to judge him. I think it's unlikely that he has ever actually done a miracle, based off of what I know, and so he comes off as a charlatan and a fake...
He is more likely an unwitting tool of the devil than a tool of God, IMO... But we should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the best of him, that he is not consciously defrauding people.
But yeah, IDK.
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@philokalia saidWhy should people do this when it is obvious that the man is a charlatan and a fraud?
But we should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the best of him, that he is not consciously defrauding people.
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@philokalia saidhttps://www.lourdes-france.org/en/the-miracles-of-lourdes/
(1) No, there's no official list that I am aware of...
70 cases of miraculous cures at Lourdes have been recognized by the Church. 70 out of thousands of visitors hoping for a miraculous cure.
Compare this with the rate of spontaneous remission in cancer patients:
https://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php
One in five breast cancers disappears without treatment.
Logical conclusion: if you want breast cancer to disappear, avoid Lourdes.
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@moonbus saidTo be fair, this list is only those miracles the Church recognizes from Lourdes.
https://www.lourdes-france.org/en/the-miracles-of-lourdes/
70 cases of miraculous cures at Lourdes have been recognized by the Church. 70 out of thousands of visitors hoping for a miraculous cure.
Compare this with the rate of spontaneous remission in cancer patients:
https://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php
One in five breast cancers disa ...[text shortened]... rs without treatment.
Logical conclusion: if you want breast cancer to disappear, avoid Lourdes.
Nothing in there about Tommy seeing Jesus in his toast.
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@fmf saidMiracles have one thing in common and that is they are impossible to prove real. To answer one of your questions, no it does not matter to some if they are bogus. It gives confirmation to their world views and bolster their truth either way. If it was real like a new message daily written on the moon so a person with even a low power and cost telescope can read, most everyone would get onboard with whatever program God wants them. A message like GET A COPY OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE BECAUSE I ENDORSE IT. LOVE GOD. or JOIN CHURCH X AS I APPROVE THEIR TEACHING. Things like this would make a huge difference to most I would think. The faith healers, the many testimonies of personal experiences, and the many other things we hear can only be of true value to someone that wants it to be true. The person who in church makes a statement that God helped them financially, or any other miracle in their personal life keeps the choir believing like the Shroud of Turin or discovery of the Lost Ark of the Covenant does. More power to them I say if they get some satisfaction from these claims but it can negatively impact people too. If God does help people out here but not there some would start to cry foul. How does a mother who lost a child she has been praying for that died from a horrific disease sit in the church and listen to someone giving testimonials about getting a check from the IRS they didn't deserve but because they tithed properly so God gave them a hand? We see a flood and fireball destruction in the stories of the bible but never does God intervene by eliminating malaria or cancer or something that would be helpful. When Jesus cured a man of leprosy, why not eliminate leprosy in mankind? This kind of miracle would matter but it just isn't there.
This was posted by a Christian on another thread:
The atheist will never want to hear at all about the miracles peformed in the Church in the subsequent centuries [after Christ] - don't even go there...
To which I responded: "All the miracles performed in the Church in the subsequent centuries"... you believe they were all for real?
The reply: [i]There will al ...[text shortened]... auds or figments of people's imaginations? Or does it not matter whether miracles are real or bogus?
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@joe-beyser saidThis is of course is completely incorrect.
Miracles have one thing in common and that is they are impossible to prove real.
If a person if found to have a broken leg, it’s X-rayed and documented and then the leg is instantly healed while the person is still in hospital, then it would be easy to prove as being genuine.
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@joe-beyser saidAs far as I’m aware there are only two cited motivations for Jesus carrying out miracles 1) compassion for the individual, and 2) to increase the faith of the subject and observers.
When Jesus cured a man of leprosy, why not eliminate leprosy in mankind? This kind of miracle would matter but it just isn't there.
In fact Jesus admonishes “the generation who seek miracles”.
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@fmf saidNo.
Is there an official list of "real" miracles that have happened over the centuries since Jesus's death?
@fmf saidGood example.
Take Benny Hinn for example.
For a Christian who believes in miracles, which of the following is true?
[1] It is wrong to believe that any of his supposed miracles are real.
[2] It is wrong to believe that none of his supposed miracles are real.
[3] It is right to believe that some of his supposed miracles are real.
[4] It doesn't matter whether or not Benny Hinn's supposed miracles are real.
I personally believe that Benny Hinn is a fake and a fraud who is more concerned about receiving money than bringing people to the Lord. Again, my opinion; and many others.
I remember a time when I was watching him on tv and he was supposedly preaching to a bunch of poor people in Africa. He started twirling his suit coat around like a cowboy trying to rope a calf with a rope. As the people rushed forward to receive the Holy Spirit, he would hit the people with his suit coat and they would fall to the floor doing the fish out of water flops. They were piled three and four body's high doing the fish out of water flop. Hilarious to say the least.
It does matter if he is real; which I feel he is not at all. MOST people know a fraud when they see one(saved or not); or, they will learn fairly quickly.