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@divegeester
The local churches are not standing on denominated grounds but on the ground the apostles established one church for one city receiving all believers who wish to come back to local ground.
That is why we meet as the New Testament model to avoid denominating.
Perhaps you reason that it is impossible to not be denominated and a church by its nature is a denomination - a division. Some of us have found that not to be true.
And you didn't read my posts carefully.
For instance I wrote:
Before any Christian gloats and thinks "Yea Go Get em!"
Babylon is something in our blood. You may leave Babylon but Babylon will not leave you so easily. It is not a matter simple of crossing the street and getting away from that gathering.
This mixture is something in man's fallen religious being. Transformation is the true way OUT . . . of this religious mixture called Babylon the Great.
This means to me that there are elements of Babylon still every local church needs to overcome. My opinion is that there will be overcomers from unexpected quarters.
The Lord will get a corporate normal expression of absoluteness and unity.
We endeavor in the local churches that that need for God may be fulfilled with our cooperation. In the end only He gets the glory. We hope to be faithful to what God has shown us.
That Christians who have seen less yet are faithful to what they have seen, is the Lord's pleasure. You read about the last shall be first and the first shall be last no doubt.
@sonship saidSo in your opinion, your church is not affected by the Babylonian prophesy of revelation?
@divegeester
The local churches are not standing on denominated grounds but on the ground the apostles established one church for one city receiving all believers who wish to come back to local ground.
That is why we meet as the New Testament model to avoid denominating.
Perhaps you reason that it is impossible to not be denominated and a church by its nature is ...[text shortened]... s the Lord's pleasure. You read about the last shall be first and the first shall be last no doubt.
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@divegeester
The church in Pittsburgh is seeking to lay hold of the promise on a local level that we may GROW UP Into Christ in all things. We do not count that there is no more growth to be had.
" unto the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
that we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error,
But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ." (Eph. 4:12b-15)
The local church in which I participate has not "arrived" but we endeavor to.
We have not yet attained "the full knowledge" though we look to God to
bring us into that. You will not be able to insert into my mouth that we have arrived here in Pittsburgh "at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" as if we are perfected and out of the reach of Babylonian like germs.
Like the church in Corinth, the church of the Thessalonians, the church in Philippi, or the churches in Galatia (many localities) or the church in Colossi or the churches in Judea (many localities) or the church in Ephesus or the one in Smryna or the one in Pergamos or the one in Thyatira, or Sardis or Philadelphia or Laodicea we in Pittsburgh are still subject to the need for exhortation, correction, adjustment, growth, rebuke, and building up.
We are clear about that.
And we are also clear that we stand upon the proper ground of unity - one city / one church.
@sonship saidIt’s a simple question Sonship, and as always when you won’t give an honest answer my antennae start twitching… Here is again then have another go at it
@divegeester
The local church in which I participate has not "arrived" but we endeavor to.We have not yet attained "the full knowledge" though we look to God to bring us into that. You will not be able to insert into my mouth that we have arrived here in Pittsburgh "at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" as if we are perfected and out of the reach of Babylonian like germs.
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement, excluded from being part of the Babylonian Harlot?
It’s a yes or no Sonship, no lengthy streams of exegesis encoded with html bolding, no film flam, just a straight honest yes or no.
Thank you.
@sonship saidIt’s just a simple binary question, why are you reluctant to give a yes or a no in response?
@divegeester
I've got to find fault.
I've got to find fault.
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I've got to find fault.
I've got to find fault.
Okay you have to find fault somewhere.
But I don't have to help your obsession.
Witness Lee went to be with the Lord in 1997, some 25 years ago.
The vision and spread of the local ground of the church continues, spreads on four continents, and in many places flourishes.
Who are you going to blame now that Lee is gone for so long?
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Here is Divegeester trying to hold my feet to the fire.
It’s a simple question Sonship, and as always when you won’t give an honest answer my antennae start twitching… Here is again then have another go at it
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement, excluded from being part of the Babylonian Harlot?
It’s a yes or no Sonship, no lengthy streams of exegesis encoded with html bolding, no film flam, just a straight honest yes or no.
Thank you.
Maybe his antennae starts twitching because he cannot get me to clearly accept his assumptions which I refuse to own just because he thinks I should.
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement, excluded from being part of the Babylonian Harlot?
Implication he wants me to own:
1.) My church is distinct from the universal church.
Calvin's church was his church and my church is another one.
The Baptist denomination is their church and my church is another one.
The local church is the universal church standing on the proper ground of practical unity.
The moon over Dallas is not a different moon from the moon over Boston.
The moon over Pretoria is not another moon than the moon over Moscow.
This is the way we see the local ground of the universal church.
The church in Pittsburgh is not another church from the universal church.
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement, excluded from being part of the Babylonian Harlot?
2.) The implication of the Lord's recovery of the proper ground and standing for a practical church life I do not think is a "movement" in the sense he means. I believe it is a move of the Holy Spirit.
As you can see embedded in his question are assumptions I do not agree to go along with.
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement, excluded from being part of the Babylonian Harlot?
If I say "Yes, there may be local churches which fall into confusion so as to be Babylon". Then he will probably:
a.) Object that I do not speak generally as the "movement" of "sonship's church".
b.) Ask to name "Which ones?"
If I say "No, no local churches could be viewed as Babylon" that would be saying the local churches are some utopian entity incapable of sliding into error.
Was there any local church in the New Testament that appeared beyond the need for growth, maturing, exhortations, even rebuke? I can locate none.
The church in Philadelphia Jesus said had only a little strength, but were faithful to not deny His name. And he assured them of reward of they would hold fast to the what they had in brotherly love.
That is about the closest I see to being ready for rapture as a corporate church body.
Divegeester seems to mover from his initial insightful post to wanting to be able to clearly label every Christian more specifically:
This one - "In Babylon"
This one - "Not in Babylon".
He wants to have a cut and dry way to identify who is in Babylon and who is not in Babylon. And he hopes I will assist him.
To that effort I say -
" . . . the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." (2 Tim. 2:19)
And the insatiable thirst for being able to accuse should not be cloaked behind whining about Forum etiquette. "Its too long. Too much exposition. Too much HTML."
@sonship saidI’ll keep tryingI've got to find fault.
I've got to find fault.
Okay you have to find fault somewhere.
But I don't have to help your obsession.
Witness Lee went to be with the Lord in 1997, some 25 years ago.
The vision and spread of the local ground of the church continues, spreads on four continents, and in many places flourishes.
Who are you going to blame now that Lee is gone for so long?
Sonship, is your church, the recovery movement included in the vision described in Revelation as the Babylonian Harlot?
Yes or no.
Just be honest and forthright.
@sonship saidThere is no answer in there, just an awful lot of convoluted excusifying for your not answering.
@divegeester
See above.
Your church is other part of that vision or it isn’t.
Which is it?
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@divegeester
Bump for Divegeester,
You'll keep trying?
Let me try again then.
Witness Lee went to be with the Lord in 1997, some 25 years ago.
The vision and spread of the local ground of the church continues, spreads on four continents, and in many places flourishes.
Who are you going to blame since Witness Lee has been dead for 25 years?
@sonship saidNevermind I’ll file it away with all the other checkmate questions you refuse to answer.
@divegeester
Bump for Divegeester,
You'll keep trying?
@kevin-eleven
This is what I was referring to yesterday when I used the phrase “cornering sonship”.