Bible Starting Points ?

Originally posted by sonship
[b]Deuteronomy 6:4

' Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. "

Divegeester maintains that this is a starting point in any discussion on the nature of God -

Divegeester, why is this a "starting point." ?
What makes a certain passage a "starting point" ?

Why is Deut.. 6:4 qualified to be th ...[text shortened]... t our understanding of God except from an arguably arbitrary one you prefer in Deut. 4:6.[/b]

Another late question:

In gen. !;1 (or Wherever else it might be used) isn't Elohim an intensive noun used to indicate majesty, dignity, or excellency? Aaron Ember wrote, "That the language of the O.T. has entirely given up the idea of plurality as applied to the God of Israel." He goes on to state why this conclusion is reached. He says, "Elohim is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute." He concludes, "Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural."
The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures. Vol XXIp. 208

Even rulers today use intensive plurals.
i.e. A king today may state, "We declare this to be a law!"
He's not saying he is more than one person.
He's indicating his right or authority to declare a law.

Originally posted by roigam
Another late question:

In gen. !;1 (or Wherever else it might be used) isn't Elohim an intensive noun used to indicate majesty, dignity, or excellency? Aaron Ember wrote, "That the language of the O.T. has entirely given up the idea of plurality as applied to the God of Israel." He goes on to state why this conclusion is reached. He says, "Elohim is almost ...[text shortened]... not saying he is more than one person.
He's indicating his right or authority to declare a law.

Why do you think Jesus was executed?

Jesus was executed for blasphemy, for claiming himself to be God, not for doing miracles.

He said "Unless you believe that "I AM" you will die in your sins" now watch what the listeners do...at THAT point they were enraged and took up stones to kill him.

They didn't pick up stones to kill him because he said he was a carpenter!

Originally posted by roigam
Another late question:

In gen. !;1 (or Wherever else it might be used) isn't Elohim an intensive noun used to indicate majesty, dignity, or excellency? Aaron Ember wrote, "That the language of the O.T. has entirely given up the idea of plurality as applied to the God of Israel." He goes on to state why this conclusion is reached. He says, "Elohim is almost ...[text shortened]... not saying he is more than one person.
He's indicating his right or authority to declare a law.

Genesis 1:26 has God say " Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Verse 27 says singular God created man in His own image.

Who is the image of the invisible God ? Check Colossians 1:15.

Check also Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 4:4; Heb. 1:3; 2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 8:29)

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you think Jesus was executed?

Jesus was executed for blasphemy, for claiming himself to be God, not for doing miracles.

He said [b]"Unless you believe that "I AM" you will die in your sins" now watch what the listeners do...at THAT point they were enraged and took up stones to kill him.

They didn't pick up stones to kill him because he said he was a carpenter![/b]

You are correct in that Jesus was executed for blasphemy.

It was the false accusation the Jews made against him.

(John 5:18) This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

I cannot find anywhere Jesus said he was God only that the Jews drew that wrong

conclusion. Can you find a Scripture where Jesus says he is God?

Originally posted by roigam

Can you find a Scripture where Jesus says he is God?

"Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

Amen. And Amen.

Roigam,
Where is the passage showing definitely God say "Jesus Christ is not God."

Originally posted by sonship
Amen. And Amen.

[b] Roigam,
Where is the passage showing definitely God say "Jesus Christ is not God."[/b]

You do not need a passage where someone says that Jesus Christ is not God.

This passage makes that clear:

..the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.
(1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV)

If Christ is God, then these also must follow:
Man is Christ
Woman is Man.

Which is bull.

There is a clear pecking order according to the Bible:
1. God - Father of all
2.. Christ Son of God
3. Holy Spirit - the Power of God manifested in various forms
4, Angels - messengers of God
5. Man
6. Woman - last because of original sin.

Originally posted by Rajk999

You do not need a passage where someone says that Jesus Christ is not God.

This passage makes that clear:

That is right. But you sure have some people going from door to door teaching that - Jehovah's Witnesses

..the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.
(1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV)

If Christ is God, then these also must follow:
Man is Christ
Woman is Man.

Which is bull.

Christ is God-man. He is the mingling of God and man and the union of divinity and humanity.

As a man, the Son of Man and the Son of God, He came to be under the headship of His Father.

We cannot take First Corintians 11 and make it prove that the Word as NOT God (John 1:1) or the that Word that was with God and mysteriously WAS God, also became flesh 9John 1:14)

But we can say that as Christ became a man obedient unto death the Head of Christ is God.

Now when it says there that the Head of everyman is Christ Paul has to mean that "man" there means male and female. Christ is the Head of every male man, yes. But Christ is also the Head of every female "man" - woman.

In some sense male and female are both MAN. Am I right ?
I think so according to Genesis 1:27.

' And God created MAN ... in His own image; in the image of God He created him; MALE AND FEMALE He created them." (Gen. 1:27)

Though the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of every man, the male man and the female "man" too.

But you are right to a certain degree that headship is being disclosed here more than equality.

Mind you ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ.
How then can this God-man NOT be God ?

"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:19)

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9)

Jesus Christ the Head of everyman, Who kept a submissive position under His Father embodies all the fullness of the Godhead. He is God and man mingled.

There is a clear pecking order according to the Bible:
1. God - Father of all
2.. Christ Son of God
3. Holy Spirit - the Power of God manifested in various forms
4, Angels - messengers of God
5. Man
6. Woman - last because of original sin.

The fact that the Son was under the authority of the Father does not change that the Word with God WAS God.

Nor does His taking the Father as His Head make it not true that all of the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship

You do not need a passage where someone says that Jesus Christ is not God.

This passage makes that clear:

That is right. But you sure have some people going from door to door teaching that - Jehovah's Witnesses


[quote]
..the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God. ...[text shortened]... er as His Head make it not true that all of the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ.

God could be in Christ without Christ being God.
God could be in man without man being God.

God can be one with Christ without Christ being God.
God can be one with man without man being God.

All the fullness of the Godhead can dwell in Christ without Christ being God.

Christ can be divine without being God.
Christ can be everything and still be a separate and distinct entity from God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
God could be in Christ without Christ being God.
God could be in man without man being God.

God can be one with Christ without Christ being God.
God can be one with man without man being God.

All the fullness of the Godhead can dwell in Christ without Christ being God.

Christ can be divine without being God.
Christ can be everything and still be a separate and distinct entity from God.

You're lying.

Originally posted by roigam
You are correct in that Jesus was executed for blasphemy.

It was the false accusation the Jews made against him.

(John 5:18) This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

I cannot find anywhere Jesus said he was God onl ...[text shortened]... at the Jews drew that wrong

conclusion. Can you find a Scripture where Jesus says he is God?

Can you answer my question first please.

Why they pick up stones to stone him after he said "if you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins"?

Thanks

Originally posted by sonship

typo: I meant to write

We cannot take First Corintians 11 and make it prove that the Word was NOT God (John 1:1) or that the Word that was with God and mysteriously WAS God, also did not became flesh (John 1:14)

Originally posted by Rajk999

God could be in Christ without Christ being God.

The Bible says that the Son given will be called "eternal Father". He's God.
And the Bible says the child born will be called Mighty God..

You're deceit is that He is not what He is called. (Isaiah 9:6)

God could be in man without man being God.

Man will never be God in His noncommunicable attributes:
Man will never be an object of worship.
Man will never create universes.
Man will never be omniscient, omipotent, or omnipresent as God.

These are some of the attributes of God which are not communicable to the people who become "sons of God".

But logic demands that they are the same, shall we say, "species" as God.

What is the son of a whale? A whale.
What is the son of a horse? A horse.
What is the son of a antelope? An antelope.

What is the son of a man? a man (either a female or a male).

What about sons of God? What "species" are the sons of God? God.
They are God-men.

God can be one with Christ without Christ being God.

Christ is not only one with God. Christ is "the LIFE of God".

" ... out hands handled concerning the Word of life ( and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us."

He said 'I am the ... the life" (John 14:6)

The life that was with the Father is not the Father ?
The Son given shall be called Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6)
Fallen man was alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18) .


And to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9

He is God by incarnation and resurrection.
The saved saints are God dispensed into man to make them God-men.

He is God-man from incarnation.
The saints are God-men with Him as their Head by way of full salvation.

Did you think full salvation was just to be forgiven and saved to live on a happy blessed earth ?

In Revelation 3:12 Jesus promises that He will make the overcomer a pillar in the temple of His God and write upon Him the name of His God.

"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God .."

The temple is living.
The temple is the dwelling place of God.
The man who becomes the pillar in the living temple of God will have upon him the name of God written.

The symbolism is God and man mingled together to form the mutual dwelling place New Jerusalem. They become God in life and nature and expression but not in the Godhead.

What do you say about the name of God written on the transformed and built up people ? Ownership is complete. To see them is to see God -is to see God mingled with man.

" .. and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (See Revelation 3:12)

What do you think it means for a man to become a pillar in the temple of God ?
Do you think it means he will be turned to marble ?

God can be one with man without man being God.

No. This oneness which the Bible culminates in is an organic mingling in which the components remain distinguishable in the combination. God and man become mingled.

Even now the Christian is "one spirit with the Lord" (1 Cor. 3:6). That means one part of my being is God.

How can my spirit and the eternal Spirit of the Lord be "one spirit" unless I am Him and He is me ?

The Christians will be "swallowed up in [divine] life" (2 Cor. 5:4)

Today we can become one spirit with the Lord.
The day must come when we Christians will be SWALLOWED UP by the divine life of God.

What will we be when we are swallowed up by the divine life? We are destined to be God-men. That is God is us and we are God.

What you thought being saved was just a ticket to a happy heavenly mansion ?

All the fullness of the Godhead can dwell in Christ without Christ being God.

The Word was with God and the Word was God.
It stands to reason that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in this One.

Christ can be divine without being God.

Christ is not as Michael the angel or Gabriel the angel if that is what you may mean by divine. He is God the Son -

"But as to the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." (See Hebrews 1:8)

God the Son.

Christ can be everything and still be a separate and distinct entity from God.

Distinct He is but not separate. Thomas realized that the resurrected Jesus was both His Lord and His God. Jesus did not correct him but told him - "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Though I haven't seen yet, I believe that Jesus the man is my Lord and my God.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

The eye cannot see itself.

(yeah it's a throw away comment, but food for thought for some ...)