04 Nov 05
Originally posted by jimmyb270Thanks Jimmy,
[b]Consider for a moment the ramifications of free will
This free will thing is always tugged out. The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will. Free will would still exist, "Shall I have toast or cereal this morning?" "Should I become a computer programmer or a novelist?".
Suppose I were to design a ...[text shortened]... It's just lazy thinking. If we'd always thought like that, we'd still be living in the trees.[/b]
I was too tired to retort but you said what I wanted to say and probably much better than I would have 😏
04 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by jimmyb270
[b]Consider for a moment the ramifications of free will
This free will thing is always tugged out. The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will. Free will would still exist, "Shall I have toast or cereal this morning?" "Should I become a computer programmer or a novelist?".
Suppose I were to design a ...[text shortened]... It's just lazy thinking. If we'd always thought like that, we'd still be living in the trees.[/b]
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by jimmyb270This free will thing is always tugged out. The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will. Free will would still exist
[b]Consider for a moment the ramifications of free will
This free will thing is always tugged out. The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will. Free will would still exist, "Shall I have toast or cereal this morning?" "Should I become a computer programmer or a novelist?".
Suppose I were to design a ...[text shortened]... It's just lazy thinking. If we'd always thought like that, we'd still be living in the trees.[/b]
This is a contradiction. If God stops us from doing evil then we don’t have the ability to choose to do evil. This is not free will
Originally posted by The Chess Express
We don’t know the actual causes, if we did, we’d be able to predict them
Go back far enough and there are lots of things we didn't know. It's way too easy to simply attribute that which we don't understand to some mystical being in the sky.
If we don’t know then it is also way to easy to say that it’s all science.
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by bbarrDon't you think Natural Law is a sufficient "moral education"?
I think the part about "programming no limits into it" in the robot example is to be taken as an analogue of "without providing a suitable moral education" in your parent of a serial rapist example. If you fail to provide a suitable moral education to your child, and your child grows up to be a bad person, aren't you at least partly responsible?
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by jimmyb270Suppose I were to design an intelligent robot. Programming no limits into it, I let it loose into the world. Two days later it is responsible for the death of a hundred people. Who is to blame? I am.
[b]Consider for a moment the ramifications of free will
This free will thing is always tugged out. The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will. Free will would still exist, "Shall I have toast or cereal this morning?" "Should I become a computer programmer or a novelist?".
Suppose I were to design a ...[text shortened]... It's just lazy thinking. If we'd always thought like that, we'd still be living in the trees.[/b]
Your analogy is inherently flawed. Humans are subject to natural law, some might call it our conscience. We are pre-programmed with the ability to morally distinguish to a greater or smaller degree between right and wrong. This distinguishment allows for a rational moral obligation to do good, while having the choice to do evil.
The thing is, God could have stopped us from doing evil without withholding our free will.
A limited free-will? Methinks that is an oxymoron. You are given limited options? That doesn't seem perfect moral freedom to me...
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by bbarrI'm not so sure.
I think the part about "programming no limits into it" in the robot example is to be taken as an analogue of "without providing a suitable moral education" in your parent of a serial rapist example. If you fail to provide a suitable moral education to your child, and your child grows up to be a bad person, aren't you at least partly responsible?
We're talking about free will. I took 'programming no limits' to mean no 'do not
harm humans' chip like RoboCop had, not 'view killing and saving people as morally
equal action.'
Conversely, if you tell a child 'Don't steal or God will punish you by making you
burn in hell,' are you taking away free will? Is that really 'programming a limit?'
It sorta might be. I don't really know the answer.
Nemesio
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThe above debate is all very erudite, but could we all take a moment to enjoy the following phrase:
If you give fish a bowl and some water to swim in and food to eat, and then the fish develop technologies that they know will poison the water and taint the food, is it your fault if they kill themselves? Would it not still be merciful to forgive them of their stupidity, and help them out from time to time?
If we lived the way God intended us to ...[text shortened]... re would be a lot fewer natural disasters (and a lot fewer problems in general for that matter).
"...and then the fish develop technologies that they know will poison the water and taint the food."
This is a work of genius, and the debate is now secondary to it.
04 Nov 05
http://www.afsc.org/iraq/movie.htm
Watch this movie and try to explain away how God is truly a loving God to allow this all to happen?
Can I beat some of you Christians to the predictable answer you are going to give about mankind and free will and God has nothing to do with it? At least for me, it doesn't wash.
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by Joe FistLike I said "the problem is this world hasn’t gotten it yet."
http://www.afsc.org/iraq/movie.htm
Watch this movie and try to explain away how God is truly a loving God to allow this all to happen?
Can I beat some of you Christians to the predictable answer you are going to give about mankind and free will and God has nothing to do with it? At least for me, it doesn't wash.
Do you think these things would be happening if everybody lived the way God intended us to live?
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressDo you think these things would be happening if everybody lived the way God intended us to live?
Like I said "the problem is this world hasn’t gotten it yet."
Do you think these things would be happening if everybody lived the way God intended us to live?
From the Christian or perhaps most religious perspectives, no these particular problems would most likely not exist if we were more "Christian" like.
But the fundamental flaw comes from the Creator and not the Creation. The Creator could have easily created us without the capacity to commit violent acts against each other. Does the automobile maker not usually make a car that does not adhere to some kind of safety precautions?
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04 Nov 05
Originally posted by Joe FistThe Creator could have easily created us without the capacity to commit violent acts against each other. Does the automobile maker not usually make a car that does not adhere to some kind of safety precautions?
[b]Do you think these things would be happening if everybody lived the way God intended us to live?
From the Christian or perhaps most religious perspectives, no these particular problems would most likely not exist if we were more "Christian" like.
But the fundamental flaw comes from the Creator and not the Creation. The Creator could have eas ...[text shortened]... automobile maker not usually make a car that does not adhere to some kind of safety precautions?[/b]
That way we would all be robots with no free will.
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by Joe FistI don’t like the way world is anymore than you do. Sometimes I wonder myself what the lesser evil is, free will or robots. God chose free will, and so this is where we’re at.
[b]Do you think these things would be happening if everybody lived the way God intended us to live?
From the Christian or perhaps most religious perspectives, no these particular problems would most likely not exist if we were more "Christian" like.
But the fundamental flaw comes from the Creator and not the Creation. The Creator could have eas ...[text shortened]... automobile maker not usually make a car that does not adhere to some kind of safety precautions?[/b]
If God were to force his will on us then he would become the ultimate dictator. None of us would know him, and none of us would understand. By letting us choose between good and evil, God allows us to see what evil is, and what it leads to. God gives us the opportunity to choose him because we realize (eventually) that God is good. In fact, God is the source of all good.
To blame things like the Iraq war on God is to say that Saddam, Bush and all those involved are saints. To blame trouble on God is to say that those who cause trouble are blameless. We all know that this is not the case.
It’s easy to be mad at God, it’s easy to blame him, I’ve been there myself, but understand this is not what he wants. If we all loved one another as God wants us to these things would never happen.
04 Nov 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerNo we wouldn't and I am too weary to repeat this arguement. Reread earlier posts in this thread to address this.
[b]The Creator could have easily created us without the capacity to commit violent acts against each other. Does the automobile maker not usually make a car that does not adhere to some kind of safety precautions?
That way we would all be robots with no free will.[/b]