Bill Maher: Atheism is not religion

Originally posted by KellyJay
Actually it sets the stage for all their beliefs, it colors the universe in such a
way that they look at things through the prism of their beliefs. They do not
have a lack of beliefs, they just don't have a god they acknowledge. The lack of
a god does not void that they believe specific things true and judge all things
by those beliefs. So yes I do beli ...[text shortened]... y vary from group to group within
their ranks, but what large group doesn't have that?
Kelly

Of course atheists have beliefs concerning right and wrong, good and evil, and so on. What I was saying, albeit implicitly, is that those beliefs are not necessarily determined by, or a function of, a disbelief in a deity. When someone says they're an atheist, only one thing is known: that individual does not harbor belief in a deity. Whatever else the individual may or may not believe is not known. Some probabilities may shift (for instance it's more likely the individual accepts the theory of evolution), but nothing else is certain about the individual. Thus, atheism is not the kind of "package deal" that a religion is.

Certain modes of theism also don't qualify as a religion, I might add. One might believe that the universe was created by a god of some kind who then walked away and let the laws of nature take over, laying down no commandments or code of morality.

Originally posted by bbarr
But if this is the criterion, that one have a set of beliefs by which one judges the world, then it follows that everybody is religious because everybody has such a set of beliefs. That's just part of being a rational agent. But then it seems 'religious' has lost its moorings. By extending the notion so broadly, you've emptied it of any meaning. I'm not sure that's what you want from the term...

Webster:
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


That is how it is defined, not my words, Webster's and by that Atheist without
a god are a religion.
Kelly

Originally posted by Soothfast
Of course atheists have beliefs concerning right and wrong, good and evil, and so on. What I was saying, albeit implicitly, is that those beliefs are not necessarily determined by, or a function of, a disbelief in a deity. When someone says they're an atheist, only one thing is known: that individual does not harbor belief in a deity. Whatever else the ...[text shortened]... away and let the laws of nature take over, laying down no commandments or code of morality.

Having a deity or not isn't the root cause, it is again, believing in a system or
set of beliefs, deity not required.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Webster:
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


That is how it is defined, not my words, Webster's and by that Atheist without
a god are a religion.
Kelly

There may be different meanings for the word "religion," but do you really think that is the one we're specifically talking about? Certainly people will say things like "Instilling an eagerness to learn in children is her religion" (a cause), or "The ideals of communism are his religion" (a principle), but that's not the connotation under consideration here. I understand that, for some curious reason, it's terrifically important to many Christians that atheists also be regarded as religious, but to do so requires digging down to, say, the quaternary meaning of the word in Webster's dictionary.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Having a deity or not isn't the root cause, it is again, believing in a system or
set of beliefs, deity not required.
Kelly

That doesn't even make sense.

Originally posted by Soothfast
There may be different meanings for the word "religion," but do you really think that is the one we're specifically talking about? Certainly people will say things like "Instilling an eagerness to learn in children is her religion" (a cause), or "The ideals of communism are his religion" (a principle), but that's not the connotation under consideration he ...[text shortened]... ires digging down to, say, the quaternary meaning of the word in Webster's dictionary.

It is the definition of the words "religion" and "religious" along with the belief system of the atheists that makes them religious, or at least most of them. The desire of Christians has nothing to do with that.

Originally posted by Soothfast
That doesn't even make sense.

He is saying that a person can be religious without a deity playing any part in it, even though most religions involve a deity. Many people are like you and think a belief in a deity is required to be religious, but that is not so. Also superstition is a word for a religious belief that is known to be false. Atheists usually consider any religion as superstition.

Originally posted by Soothfast
There may be different meanings for the word "religion," but do you really think that is the one we're specifically talking about? Certainly people will say things like "Instilling an eagerness to learn in children is her religion" (a cause), or "The ideals of communism are his religion" (a principle), but that's not the connotation under consideration he ires digging down to, say, the quaternary meaning of the word in Webster's dictionary.

It has been what I've been talking about! It is one of the ways that word is
defined, if it doesn't suit your beliefs that isn't my issue its yours. Atheist have
a cause, it isn't one that promotes Theism! If that were not true there would be
no issues of church and state within this country, where some people want to
be free from religion that has some god in it, they cannot stand the thought of
being exposed to it. They hold those beliefs rather strongly, and they fight for
them. The belief system foundation is godless, you can say they have a lack of
faith in a god or they have no faith in a god, or some other verbage it is all gets
us to the same place.
Kelly

Originally posted by Soothfast
That doesn't even make sense.

Religion does not require a god, gods, or God. Go back and read the diff of
the word I've been posting. Those that suggest a god is required are not
reading the meaning of the word, instead they are ignoring it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Religion does not require a god, gods, or God. Go back and read the diff of
the word I've been posting. Those that suggest a god is required are not
reading the meaning of the word, instead they are ignoring it.
Kelly

I am not sure that anyone is claiming that a god is required. However that is not the same thing as saying atheism is a religion (it is not). Atheists may be religious about their atheism, or have religions of their own, but this does not make all atheists members of a religion called atheism.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It has been what I've been talking about! It is one of the ways that word is
defined, if it doesn't suit your beliefs that isn't my issue its yours. Atheist have
a cause, it isn't one that promotes Theism! If that were not true there would be
no issues of church and state within this country, where some people want to
be free from religion that has some ...[text shortened]... y have no faith in a god, or some other verbage it is all gets
us to the same place.
Kelly

Wow are you wrong.

First off, Secularism, the idea that government should be secular (ie not religious) is supported
by Many religious people. In fact the number of religious people who support secular government
almost certainly outnumbers the number of atheists in America.

The idea of secularism is enshrined in your constitution.

It's the principle that no religion will be forced down anyone's throats by government.

You can support that idea whether you are religious or not.

All you have to want is for someone else's religious beliefs not to be imposed on you by anyone else,
including the government. Freedom of religion, the ability to believe and worship as you wish, requires
freedom from religion, it requires that you not be forced to believe or worship any religion so that you
are free to choose. (and also it requires that you not be made to observe the rituals and/or taboos of
any particular religion)

Secularism would be an issue regardless of the presence of atheists in your country.


Second, And I have told you this before and yet you still don't comprehend it...

Atheism is not a foundation of anything.

Atheism is not a starting point, it's not something you build on, it's not a foundation, it's a result.

I don't believe things because I am an atheist, I am an atheist because of some if the things I believe.

I am a rational, scientific, skeptic. This requires that I believe nothing on faith, that is to say I hold no
firm convictions that anything is true until I have evidence that would justify holding such a conviction.

As there is no evidence for the existence of god/s, or an afterlife, or souls/spirit/life force/the supernatural....
Then I don't believe in those things.

And because I don't have a belief (firm conviction) in the existence of god/s I am an atheist.

But as you can see that's a result of my world view (rational scientific skepticism) and not the foundation of it.

ALL atheism is is a lack of a firm conviction of the existence of god/s.

If you have never heard of the concept of god/s an have never thought about it and don't have any beliefs or
opinions either way then you would be an atheist.

It's not a belief system. Period.


And while my world view and beliefs may be shaped by rational scientific skepticism, that is by no means true of all
atheists. There is literally nothing we ALL hold in common except a lack of belief in god/s.

Indeed some religions don't include god/s and thus their members wan be considered to be atheists, although they would
normally label themselves by their religion rather than their lack of belief in gods.


Third.
If you are going to define religion and religious as simply having strongly held beliefs of any kind then you have just
rendered the word meaningless.
Nobody except religious nut-jobs who want to play childish games of 'I'm rubber your glue' mean that when they use
the word religion.

A religion is a particular KIND of belief system that often includes belief in god/s but ALWAYS includes belief in the
supernatural and a life after death of some kind. (and yes that does include Buddhism)

And as there is no evidence for any of those things it also ALWAYS includes FAITH based belief.
That is...
Holding a firm conviction (belief) that P is true despite NOT having evidence that justifies holding that
firm conviction (belief) that P is true...
OR
Holding a firm conviction (belief) that P is true despite and in the face of having evidence that P is NOT true.


My world view (rational scientific skepticism) expressly forbids holding faith based beliefs.
Thus, given the present evidence, it also expressly forbids belief in the existence of the supernatural, god/s, the afterlife,
souls, spirits, life force, or the idea of divine absolute implicit morality built into the universe.


Fourth.

Atheists do not have a cause. Some atheists might have causes, but collectively there is nothing on which we all agree on
except that we don't hold a belief in the existence of god/s. And some/many atheists really don't care about whether god/s
exist or not. The most visible atheists to you might well be the ones loudly pressing for better separation of church and state.
But they are not ALL atheists and not all atheists think like they (we/I) do.

And Fifth...

I really don't care what your particular dictionary says about what a religion is, and whether or not you can twist it so that
you can (in your head) make everyone religious.
A religion, or a religious belief, is understood by the overwhelming majority of people to be a particular subset of beliefs.
Those that relate to the existence of god/s and souls and afterlives.
The fact that a dictionary somewhere includes a badly worded definition that can be twisted to mean something different
is utterly irrelevant.

You can quote the dictionary till you are blue in the face and it still wont make you right.


You can find dictionaries that define atheism as being the active disbelief in the non-existence of the Christian god.

That doesn't in any way mean that that is what atheism is/means. For starters atheism applies to all gods not just
the Christian one.

What it means is that the dictionary definition was written by an ignorant and biased Christian theist who was prejudiced against atheism.

We are not ruled by dictionaries, and dictionaries get things wrong. (or rather the people who write them get things wrong)

That's why dictionaries get re-released with new versions which have words added and/or meanings added/changed/corrected.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Wow are you wrong.

[b]First off, Secularism, the idea that government should be secular (ie not religious) is supported
by Many religious people. In fact the number of religious people who support secular government
almost certainly outnumbers the number of atheists in America.

The idea of secularism is enshrined in your constitution.

It w versions which have words added and/or meanings added/changed/corrected.[/b]

Topic Atheism

1. I didn't make up the diff I simply posted it and I did it from more than one
source. If you wish to talk about secularism feel free I've been discussing
Atheism.

2. Secularism different topic... if someone else's religion is being pushed against
another is part of this topic of debate so where Atheist try to crowd out Theist
you have as I pointed out one religion going against another.

3. Simply saying I'm wrong your right isn't an argument, so you telling me that
my point of view is in error is YOUR OPINION. I've been holding to the way the
word is defined, you have an issue with that go to the sources.

4. Athiesm is the foundation for EVERYTHING, you view the world as something
without a God, god, or gods. It colors all things from how you view mankind to
eveything else, it is the foundation upon which people even look at science. You
can not avoid that, but if you want to say it has no foundational meaning...you
are kidding yourself.

5. My constitution has freedom to practice religion in it, the courts gave us the
separation of church and state.

6. I didn't render the word meaningless I quoted the one of the meanings of the
word. It may not fit what you'd like to believe about it, but that is your issue
not mine. I quoted two sources and you find that a childish game did you? I
guess only sources that agree with you should be quoted, can I have that list
please?

7. Your view on what religion is that it always has some type of supernatural
version in it is false, at least it does not line up with how the word is defined.
Your love of baseball can be a relgion, it does not have to be something with a
god, gods, or God in it or devils or angels.

8. Atheist may not have a "cause" never said they did, actually if I recall
correctly I stated they may have several views...not unlike Theist who do not
agree with one another on all topics.

9. I love your statement dictionaries get it wrong...I guess you should start a
write champain and change them all, because more than one view it that way.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Topic Atheism

1. I didn't make up the diff I simply posted it and I did it from more than one
source. If you wish to talk about secularism feel free I've been discussing
Atheism.

2. Secularism different topic... if someone else's religion is being pushed against
another is part of this topic of debate so where Atheist try to crowd out Theist
you h a
write champain and change them all, because more than one view it that way.
Kelly

Sigh...

1. I didn't make up the diff I simply posted it and I did it from more than one
source. If you wish to talk about secularism feel free I've been discussing
Atheism.

I never claimed that you made up the definitions you posted.
I did say that you distorted it/misinterpreted them, but I never claimed that you made them up.
However you ARE making the claim that any set of beliefs (or strongly held beliefs) are a religion.
This IS something that YOU are making up.
Nobody not a whackjob fundy religionist agrees with you on this.

And actually YOU brought up secularism when you said...

"If that were not true there would be no issues of church and state within this country"

Separation of Church and State IS an issue of secularity, Not atheism.

The call is for a secular government not an atheist government.

So no, you brought up secularism.

2. Secularism different topic... if someone else's religion is being pushed against
another is part of this topic of debate so where Atheist try to crowd out Theist
you have as I pointed out one religion going against another.

Again, no.

Atheists are not trying to 'crowd out theists'.
Atheists are trying to convince people that theism is stupid, but that's a different matter.

What we are calling for is a secular government. One that doesn't impose anyone's religion on anyone else.

And that includes preventing people WITH a religion trying to impose that religion on those who DON'T have a religion.

3. Simply saying I'm wrong your right isn't an argument, so you telling me that
my point of view is in error is YOUR OPINION. I've been holding to the way the
word is defined, you have an issue with that go to the sources.

I realise that saying you are wrong isn't an argument. It's a conclusion.
One I am perfectly justified in making.

And no it's not an opinion.

4. Athiesm is the foundation for EVERYTHING, you view the world as something
without a God, god, or gods. It colors all things from how you view mankind to
eveything else, it is the foundation upon which people even look at science. You
can not avoid that, but if you want to say it has no foundational meaning...you
are kidding yourself.

No. YOU do not get to tell ME or ANYONE else what it is that THEY believe or WHY.

How arrogant are you? That you claim to know what and how I think.

Atheism is a conclusion, a result.

It is not the foundation of anything.

I can't go "I don't believe in god's.... and therefore..." there is no therefore.

I can't derive anything about the world from not believing in gods, I can't derive any morality from it.
It's not the basis of my world view, it doesn't colour my world view.

It's a conclusion OF my world view.


I realise that for a theist/religionist that their religion IS the foundation of their world view.

BUT ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION.

5. My constitution has freedom to practice religion in it, the courts gave us the
separation of church and state.

Wrong. You need to learn more about your own countries history and laws.

6. I didn't render the word meaningless I quoted the one of the meanings of the
word. It may not fit what you'd like to believe about it, but that is your issue
not mine. I quoted two sources and you find that a childish game did you? I
guess only sources that agree with you should be quoted, can I have that list
please?

You DID render the word meaningless when you made it mean every set of possible beliefs.

If everyone is religious, and every set of beliefs constitute a religion, then the word looses all meaning
and point.

It doesn't differentiate anything.

It no longer means anything to say something is a 'religious' belief if ALL beliefs are religious.

You haven't imparted any extra information by using the word religion.

If all beliefs are religious then people just have beliefs. Saying religious beliefs becomes like saying beliefs beliefs.
It's a waste of breath/ink/pixels/bits.

The word only has utility, has purpose if it differentiates between different kinds of beliefs.

When people talk about something being a religion, there is meaning behind that word that modifies your
expectations about what kind of beliefs are involved. It narrows down the range of possibilities.

7. Your view on what religion is that it always has some type of supernatural
version in it is false, at least it does not line up with how the word is defined.
Your love of baseball can be a relgion, it does not have to be something with a
god, gods, or God in it or devils or angels.

Circular argument fallacy.

My 'love of baseball' (I don't actually have one but for the sake of the argument...) is NOT a religion.
The contention it is, is what YOU are trying to prove.

A religion DOES always have some form of beliefs in the supernatural in it. That's part of what makes the
beliefs religious as opposed to anything else.

8. Atheist may not have a "cause" never said they did, actually if I recall
correctly I stated they may have several views...not unlike Theist who do not
agree with one another on all topics.

From the post I was responding to...

"...Atheist have a cause,..."

You do not recall correctly.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Sigh...

1. I didn't make up the diff I simply posted it and I did it from more than one
source. If you wish to talk about secularism feel free I've been discussing
Atheism.

I never claimed that you made up the definitions you posted.
I did say that you distorted it/misinterpreted them, but I never claimed that you made them up.
...[text shortened]... e a cause,...[/i]"

You do not recall correctly.[/b]

Oh, you can derive all sorts of scientific and moral conclusions from atheism.

"I don't believe in God(s), therefore I shouldn't entertain God(s)-based explanations for empirical phenomena..."

I don't believe in God(s), therefore I shouldn't take seriously normative ethical theories that explain goodness/rightness/virtue and their contraries on the basis of properties of God(s) (e.g., Divine Command Theory, Thomist Natural Law Theory, etc.)"

I'm pretty sure what Kelly is driving at, when talking about systems of belief that are colored by atheism, is that atheists will take as relevant or epistemically available only explanations or justifications that don't make reference to God(s). This exclusion he takes as just the flip-side of what theists do; both have worldviews that rest on foundations, where those foundations de facto exclude contrary worldviews. Or something like this. You'll respond that not all foundations are equal because some are evidentially-based and others are faith-based. But Kelly thinks that faith picks up the slack in any case where one's evidence is insufficient to render a belief epistemically certain. So all worldviews end up being at least partially faith-based.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Topic Atheism

1. I didn't make up the diff I simply posted it and I did it from more than one
source. If you wish to talk about secularism feel free I've been discussing
Atheism.

2. Secularism different topic... if someone else's religion is being pushed against
another is part of this topic of debate so where Atheist try to crowd out Theist
you h ...[text shortened]... a
write champain and change them all, because more than one view it that way.
Kelly

outstanding.