Calling Sonship

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Rajk has it backwards, you receive Jesus TO be able to obey/follow his commandments.
Otherwise it is works of the flesh.

John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”...23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

In the above, Jesus did not say "IF you receive Me, THEN you will be able to follow My commandments". Jesus clearly said the opposite: "IF you KEEP my word, THEN We will make Our abode with you".

Jesus also made it clear in the following:
John 15
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Once again it is "IF "you KEEP My commandments", THEN "you will abide in my love". Once again, Jesus did not say, "IF you receive Me, THEN you will be able to follow My commandments".

Do you also believe that Jesus "has it backwards"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”...23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

In the abov ...[text shortened]... will be able to follow My commandments".

Do you also believe that Jesus "has it backwards"?

Checkbaiter believes that a new dispensation started on the Day of Pentecost, called the Dispensation of Grace, in which the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply.

Now even if he were correct [which he is not], there is enough in the teachings of the Apostles to support the doctrine that it is essential .. ESSENTIAL, not optional, for the Christian to live righteously and avoid sin otherwise the consequences are eternal damnation.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
deleted

What part of the United States were YOU educated?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”...23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
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And here is certainly a word of commandment from Jesus Christ. Have you kept it? Have you expressed your love for the Son of God by keeping this commandment ?

" And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you.

For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27,28)

Please tell us how you love Jesus and in accord with His instructions to "all of you " to commemorate the shedding of His blood in redemption for the forgiveness of our sins.

Do you remember the Lord Jesus in this way? I do every first day of the week.

Or do you distance yourself from this command of Jesus with various rationales ?
Remember, if we love Him we will keep His word and we will be loved by His Father. And He and the Father will come to us and make an abode with us.

This basic word of command from the mouth of Jesus, do you keep His word here ??


In the above, Jesus did not say "IF you receive Me, THEN you will be able to follow My commandments". Jesus clearly said the opposite: "IF you KEEP my word, THEN We will make Our abode with you".
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But it stands to every reason that if you LOVE Him, you will RECEIVE Him.
How can you say that you love Him if you refuse to RECEIVE Christ into your heart ?

Your "love" is like the false kiss of Judas Iscariot.

You completely deceive yourself if you reject to receive the Lord Jesus believing that He is dead and gone, yet you think trying your best to keep the "golden rule" will cause God to indwell your spirit.

Your sins still cause a separation between you and God because you don't accept His redemptive death and resurrection.

Jesus also made it clear in the following:
John 15
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
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Do you think you can go about teaching that Jesus did not die a redemptive death and did not rise from the dead and you are in ANY conceivable way keeping the word of Jesus ?

You are not teaching men to keep the word of God or of Jesus. You are teaching men to REJECT the word of Jesus. Why flatter them then that the Father and the Son will come to them to make an abode with them ?

The door you are teaching men to shut tight against the Father and the Son. You have nothing to do with teaching men to love Christ or keep His word. Your teaching is the Christ should be held in contempt and His word rejected.

How then can you flatter people that God will make an abode with them ?


Once again it is "IF "you KEEP My commandments", THEN "you will abide in my love". Once again, Jesus did not say, "IF you receive Me, THEN you will be able to follow My commandments".
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Yet you intend to REJECT and NOT KEEP His word of His redemptive death and His resurrection. There is no way around the Gospel of John. To keep His word is firstly to receive Him, and I mean today.

You don't receive Him -

1.) Because you do not think Jesus is available and alive to BE received.

2.) Because you think you have no need for His redemptive blood to be poured out for the forgiveness of your sins.

Since Christ is dead and gone to you and you have no need for the blood of His redemptive death, why flatter people that you know anything about keeping His word ?
You're teaching men to close their hearts to Jesus and not keep His word.

This hatred for Christ is also a hatred for God. Make no mistake about it.

"He who hates Me hates My Father also.

If I did not do among them the works which no one else has done, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated both Me and My Father.

But it is so that the word written in their law may be fulfilled, 'They hated Me without a cause.' " (John 15:23-25)

You are teaching men to reject the word of Jesus while flattering them that Jesus will come into them. The wickedness of this is unbelievable.

You will not enter into the kingdom of God yourself and you labor to shut the door that others who would enter cannot.

" But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you close off the kingdom of the heavens in the face of men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to enter." (Matt. 23:13)

You should repent and stop teaching a dead Christ, a meaningless redemption, and the flattery that God will make an abode with such an opposser because he keeps the golden rule.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”...23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
------- ...[text shortened]... the flattery that God will make an abode with such an opposser because he keeps the golden rule.[/b]

Sonship you have the most annoying ability to MISS THE POINT and rant and rave and be completely irrelevant.

IF YOU OBEY CHRIST .. THAT IS GREAT. Move on from there.

What is the point here is that there are Christians WHO DO NOT OBEY CHRIST.

What is the Bible teaching about those Christians. You say no big deal they are still given eternal life. Christ says something else. Paul says something else. All the Apostles condemn such Christians.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[b]Sonship you have the most annoying ability to MISS THE POINT and rant and rave and be completely irrelevant.

IF YOU OBEY CHRIST .. THAT IS GREAT. Move on from there.

What is the point here is that there are Christians WHO DO NOT OBEY CHRIST.

The one missing the point is the one thinking without Christ they can do anything.

The subtlety of the teaching of some of you does not go unnoticed.
You may think it goes unnoticed. It does not.

ToO's entire usage of John 14:23 comes along with his belief that Jesus did not die a redemptive death and did not rise from the dead. But the New Testament says -

" [Christ] Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised for our justification." (Rom. 4:25)

Probably the reason ToO does not ever clearly say there is no redemptive death for our offenses and no resurrection for our justification is because he conceals his unbelief. This is the behavior of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

ToO and yourself have this in common - Man's fleshly effort is what is more important and not the Person of Jesus.

The New Testament however says that God has made this Christ the believers very wisdom - sanctification and righteousness and redemption. And that we should boast in the Lord Jesus Himself.

" But of Him are you in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

Therefore as it is written, 'He who boasts let him boast in the Lord.' " ( 1 Cor. 1:30,31)

Both of you, in your treatment of John 14 only intend to boast in man's self effort and flatter those to be independent from Christ.

ToO does not account Christ as living or available. Any talk of Christ making an abode with his listeners is flattery.

It is not surprising that the two of you of somewhat kindred attitude.

What is the Bible teaching about those Christians. You say no big deal they are still given eternal life. Christ says something else. Paul says something else. All the Apostles condemn such Christians.
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The phrase "unto eternal life" is certainly used in the New Testament. That is that the eternal life is the outcome or the end of a journey of sorts.

I DO NOT DENY THAT.

However, we have also the truth that the believers HAVE eternal life. And I am tired of telling you this. I write it again here for the sake of those who might be led astray by your insisting that Christians have no right to proclaim that they have eternal life.

" And this is the testimony, that God has given to us eternal life and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. " (1 John 5:11,12)

You have never defeated this truth and will never be able to do so.

God GAVE to us eternal life when God GAVE to us His Son and we RECEIVED Him Whom God gave.

And the overcomers overcome the accusation of Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, a testimony that you teach Christians have no right to proclaim. (See Revelation 10:10)

And there is no use telling me that I need to speak the rest of any passage. Space and time do not allow me to write it all.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Checkbaiter believes that a new dispensation started on the Day of Pentecost, called the Dispensation of Grace, in which the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply.

Now even if he were correct [which he is not], there is enough in the teachings of the Apostles to support the doctrine that it is essential .. ESSENTIAL, not optional, for the Christian to live righteously and avoid sin otherwise the consequences are eternal damnation.

That's interesting. Not too long ago CB claimed that he doesn't pick and choose the verses and passages from the Bible that support his beliefs and dismiss those that don't.

"Dispensation" is just a way to do just that. Don't believe that the teachings of Jesus apply? Put them in an earlier "dispensation".

CB also subsequently found a way to dismiss Paul's writings about women.

Evidently his claim was false.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”...23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
------- ...[text shortened]... a separation between you and God because you don't accept His redemptive death and resurrection.[/b]

Jesus made it clear that only those who KEEP His commandments will abide in His love. No amount of ranting and argumentum ad hominem on your part is going to change that.
John 15
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

What should also be noted is that in the second portion of that verse, Jesus explains the standard for KEEPing His commandments which is the standard Jesus set in KEEPing His Father's commandments. Do you believe that Jesus KEPT His Father's commandments anything other than perfectly?

Originally posted by Rajk999
What part of the United States were YOU educated?

What do you feel you need to say?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Jesus made it clear that only those who KEEP His commandments will abide in His love. No amount of ranting and argumentum ad hominem on your part is going to change that.

And it is noted that you totally evade and ignore the question put to you about keeping His word about the celebration of His redemptive death. No, it doesn't slip by forgotten.

As much as you hand wave to avert attention elsewhere, we see no rush to defend keeping the word of Christ when it comes to belief in His redeeming sacrifice.

You are exposed to the light.

John 15
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Very good. Very good distraction from hiding your real feelings of contempt for the word of Jesus and the command of Jesus.

What should also be noted is that in the second portion of that verse, Jesus explains the standard for KEEPing His commandments which is the standard Jesus set in KEEPing His Father's commandments.

Very good. Good distraction and hand waving AWAY from your true feelings about the redeeming death and resurrection of Christ. His command clearly was to commemorate the breaking of His body and the pouring out of His blood "for the forgiveness of sins" as I reminded you in [b]Matthew 26:26-30.

You may think this is about ritual. It is not about ritual, it is about really understanding and celebrating what the "new covenant" is. The truth of it is that you hold contempt for Christ's new covenant especially in its part pertaining to redemption.

The same matter is covered by Luke;

"And He took a loaf and gave thanks, and He broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.

And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (Luke 22:19,20)

No grandstanding from you about showing love for Christ giving His body and shedding His blood to establish "the New Covenant".

Slip quietly past this. Maybe we won't notice. Maybe pretend that this is not a command and word of Jesus to be kept that He might make an abode with us.

Next post will deal further with John 15. .

You blatantly ignore my challenge to you.
But you have no hesitation to heap more challenges to me.

Do you believe that Jesus KEPT His Father's commandments anything other than perfectly?

See below.

It should be note concerning the three ways in which ABODE is used.

1.) John 14:2 as a plural noun form

"In My Father's house are many ABODES"

2.) John 14:23 as a singular noun form

" ...We will come to him and make an ABODE with him."

3.) John 15:4 in a verb form

" Abide in Me and I in you. "

For Christ to make an ABODE in the believers that the Father's house have its "many abodes" occupied we are to love Christ, keep His word.

Now Here is the most basic of His words and commands to keep -

" ABIDE in Me and I [ABIDE] in you."

Please notice that this is a very peculiar construct. The command is really a MUTUAL command. The cause of Christ living in the believer is the believer living in Christ.

Our ABIDING in the living and available Christ will cause Him to ABIDE in us. The command is a mutual one - "ABIDE in Me ... AND I IN YOU

This is similar to an OT command of God - "Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you." (James 4:8 via 2 Chron. 15:2; Zech 1:3; Mal. 3:7).

So how much abiding is abiding ?
So how much keeping of His word is keeping of His word ?
So how much keeping His commandments is keeping His commandments ?

Obviously it should deepen.
Obviously it should grow and mature.
Obviously it should increase in the Christian's life from shallow, to less shallow, to substantial, to deep, to deeper, to complete.

This is a process of TIME. If it were not a process of TIME then Jesus would not say that the oneness with He and His Father is a matter of being PERFECTED .

PERFECTING is an indication of PROCESS

" I in them and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may believe that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:23)

So degrees of PERFECTING indicate degrees of ABIDING. And the destination is "perfected into one".

In the parable of the seed of the kingdom of God sown into the good soil, the final fruit bearing is spoken of in varied levels of return.

"But the one sown on the good earth, this is he who hears the word and understands, who by all means bears fruit and produces,

one a hundredfold,
and one sixtyfold,
and one thirtyfold." (Matt. 13:23)

Different levels indicate deepening abiding in Christ as He abides mutually in His lover.
Other factors may come into play. But obviously spiritual profit is secured by the believer.

He who yielded a hundred fold increase, abode in Jesus.
He also who yielded sixtyfold increase, abode in Jesus.
He also who yielded thirtyfold increase, abode in Jesus.

And of course Jesus abode in each of them.

Originally posted by sonship

Do you believe that Jesus KEPT His Father's commandments anything other than perfectly?

Perfectly, of course.

And the believers will be PERFECTED by means of process through time (John 17).

Originally posted by sonship
It should be note concerning the three ways in which ABODE is used.

1.) [b]John 14:2 as a plural noun form

"In My Father's house are many ABODES"

2.) John 14:23 as a singular noun form

" ...We will come to him and make an ABODE with him."

3.) John 15:4 in a verb form

[qu ...[text shortened]... o who yielded thirtyfold increase, abode in Jesus.

And of course Jesus abode in each of them.[/b]

You willfully ignore parts of the parable of the Sower and the Seed so that you can support the doctrine of Watchman Nee. All Christians are not according to Jesus are NOT in the last category. Here is the whole parable:

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matthew 13:18-23 KJV)

There are FOUR categories of Christians. NOT ONE.

1. Hearers of the word, but they did not understand and they got carried away with their sins

2. Hearers of the word, who understands and are happy, but when hardship comes they fall away.

3. Hearers of the word, and believes but worldly lifestyle causes him to fall away

4. Hearers of the word, Good seed, bearing fruit, following commandments of Christ and who will be in the Kingdom of God

False teachers ignore the teachings of Christ

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus made it clear that only those who KEEP His commandments will abide in His love. No amount of ranting and argumentum ad hominem on your part is going to change that.

And it is noted that you totally evade and ignore the question put to you about keeping His word about the celebration of His redemptive death. No, it doesn't slip by ...[text shortened]... that Jesus KEPT His Father's commandments anything other than perfectly? [/quote]

See below.

C'mon jaywill. What Jesus clearly stated in John 15:10 and John 14:21,23 do not fit within your beliefs. All you've done since I've posted them is engage in incoherent ranting and argumentum ad hominem in the hopes that all YOUR "hand waving" will distract from this fact.

To make matters worse, in the midst of all that nonsense, you show that you don't understand Matthew 26:26-27 (or Luke 19:20-21) and "willfully ignore parts of the parable of the Sower" as rajk999 showed. It's truly remarkable how vehemently you are opposed to the teachings of Jesus.