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Originally posted by Rajk999
You willfully ignore parts of the parable of the Sower and the Seed so that you can support the doctrine of Watchman Nee. All Christians are not according to Jesus are NOT in the last category. Here is the whole parable:
The only thing that is important to my use of the parable in this thread is to demonstrate degrees of cooperation with the indwelling Lord.
The Lord Himself told the parable to highlight that truth.
Let us say that the one who yielded 100 fold increase was the only disciple that was 100% obedient. He is not the only one that God secured profit from. Was he ?
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
That other matters can be derived from the parable is not disputed. The FOCUS of my reference was to prove different levels of securing spiritual benefit to God.
The heart that heart (soil) which yielded 100 fold return, was not the only heart [soil) from which God obtained spiritual value. Was it ?
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
That other lessons from the parable exist is not disputed. My focus, which you seem to want to sidestep, is that varied levels of spiritual return - 100 fold, sixty fold, thirty fold, reveals degrees of profit to God.
Jesus did not mention ONLY speak of 100 fold profit.
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29 May 16
The same truth of varying degrees of spiritual profit is seen in the parable of the pounds in Luke and the parable of the talents in Matthew latter.
He who was rewarded to rule over ten cities abode in Christ.
He who was rewarded to rule over five cities also abode in Christ.
However you interpret the slothful servant in either case, the fact stands that differing levels of spiritual return were obtained by different servants for differing rewards.
So to abide in the true vine for the bearing of fruit will be successful in degrees in the church age. ToO's philosophy is a follower of Jesus is either perfect like Jesus or he is not - period.
And you salivate with a warped eagerness to proclaim those eternally redeemed will be lost in eternal perdition. You seem to live for this.
Everyone here has seen you "Gospel of Damned Believers".
I think you go beyond warnings of sobriety or warnings not to take grace for granted.
You go beyond that to a "Gospel of Don't Trust Eternal Redemption".
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Once again. The only pertinent issue I sought to focus upon was the varying degrees of spiritual profit obtained by the varying degrees of abiding in the Lord and keeping His word.
The point is made. I see no further need to repeat it.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What Jesus clearly stated in John 15:10 and John 14:21,23 do not fit within your beliefs. All you've done since I've posted them is engage in incoherent ranting and argumentum ad hominem in the hopes that all YOUR "hand waving" will distract from this fact.
I have lived John 14:21,23
Now when are you going to acknowledge that you do or you do not celebrate the breaking of Christ's body and the shedding of His blood in the establishment of the new covenant ?
That was a clear word and command of Jesus for His disciples to keep.
When are you going to indicate whether or not you keep His simple command?
And if you don't there is no reason why I should regard you as knowing or caring about loving Christ to abide in Him and keep His word.
To make matters worse, in the midst of all that nonsense, you show that you don't understand Matthew 26:26-27 (or Luke 19:20-21) and "willfully ignore parts of the parable of the Sower" as rajk999 showed. It's truly remarkable how vehemently you are opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
Let's see if your very next post will or will not own up to you obediently keeping Christ's word to celebrate His redemptive death "for the forgiveness of sins".
Your very next post to me should clear this matter up.
If you prolong your evasion further, you just may get another reply which will sound to you like an ad hom.
29 May 16
Originally posted by sonshipThere are several reasons why churches twist the doctrine of Christ:
The same truth of varying degrees of spiritual profit is seen in the parable of the [b]pounds in Luke and the parable of the talents in Matthew latter.
He who was rewarded to rule over ten cities abode in Christ.
He who was rewarded to rule over five cities also abode in Christ.
However you interpret the slothful servant in either case, ...[text shortened]... ing in the Lord and keeping His word.
The point is made. I see no further need to repeat it.[/b]
1. To benefit financially by telling people that they have nothing to do and all their sin is paid for by Christ. This false doctrine will full up the churches with fools that swallow that garbage. Fools that take their hard earned money and give it to fat rich pastors. Both pastor and Christian will hear the words that Christ has prepared for the goats unless they ignore the teachings of the church doctrine and actually follow Christ's commandments.
2. To have control and power over people.
3. If the doctrine of Christ was truthfully preached in the church, there would be nobody there and pastors would be paupers.
The doctrine of Christ in its entirety makes people free:
- free from sin
- free from condemnation
- free from the stranglehold of crooked church pastors
You are propagating religious slavery by not teaching Christ.
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29 May 16
Your very next post ToO I hope will clear up your keeping or rejecting the word of Christ about the celebration of His broken body and shed blood to establish the new covenant.
Actually if you conceal your rejection of the establishment of the new covenant according to Christ's words, it will simply be me pointing out the truth about your teaching. You think it is an ad hom.
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29 May 16
Originally posted by Rajk999
There are several reasons why churches twist the doctrine of Christ:
This is not the point at the moment.
Distracting to something else in evasion to the point won't impress me.
You are propagating religious slavery by not teaching Christ.
some 100 fold
some 60 fold
some 30 fold
All three were abiding in Christ.
Do you disagree ?
So then, John 14:23 contains the possibility of differing levels of spiritual return for the kingdom of God.
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ..."
100 fold
60 fold
30 fold
for example
" ... and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."
30 fold
60 fold
100 fold
for example deepening degrees of spiritual fruit bearing from abiding and keeping His word.
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29 May 16
The grduating levels of abiding in the Lord Jesus are demonstrated. ToO and Rajk999 have not been able to refute this.
Now we should hasten to add that the Apostle Paul and his fellow apostles labored, of course, to present every disciple fully mature in discipleship.
" [Christ] Whom we announce, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man full-grown in Christ." (Col. 1:28)
Be careful. Rajk999 may attempt to slander that we are encouraging Christians to be as loose and sloppy and defeated as they can get away with.
We should mature ourselves and seek to present others mature in Christ.
Actually, being introspective concerning your own success can be very counter productive. To labor in love to help others will be of great profit to one's own spiritual growth.
Originally posted by sonshipYou are a duncy comedian. You say :
The grduating levels of abiding in the Lord Jesus are demonstrated. ToO and Rajk999 have not been able to refute this.
Now we should hasten to add that the Apostle Paul and his fellow apostles labored, of course, to present every disciple fully mature in discipleship.
[quote] [b] " [Christ] Whom we announce, warning every man and teaching every man ...[text shortened]... ductive. To labor in love to help others will be of great profit to one's own spiritual growth.
The grduating levels of abiding in the Lord Jesus are demonstrated. ToO and Rajk999 have not been able to refute this.
Nobody is trying to refute that. 😀 That is #4 of the FOUR categories of Christians.
There is also #1.
There is #2
There is #3.
Got that?
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Originally posted by Rajk999The varied conditions of the heart could well describe every or most Christian's hearts throughout their spiritual progress.
You are a duncy comedian. You say :
[b]The grduating levels of abiding in the Lord Jesus are demonstrated. ToO and Rajk999 have not been able to refute this.
Nobody is trying to refute that. 😀 That is #4 of the FOUR categories of Christians.
There is also #1.
There is #2
There is #3.
Got that?[/b]
The fact of the matter is that many when first hearing the Gospel rejected it out of hand. It was stolen from our hearts. The heart was hardened by too much worldly traffic making it hard for divine life to penetrate.
Latter we received the word with little depth perhaps and were discouraged because of persecution.
Latter still we got beyond that but the anxieties of legitimate earthly needs hindered our growth.
Latter still we learned to deal with our hearts before God. We learned to go to Him and confess love for the world; confess hidden sins and pride; confess little trust in His provision; we confessed sins beneath the surface of the heart and self centered mistrust that hampered our witness.
Then by dealing and cultivating our own heart we learn to be more fruitful to the Lord Jesus. Therefore the teaching is profitable to any single Christian who finally learns to DEAL with their heart before God.
" Keep your heart with all vigilance, For from it are the issues of life." (Proverbs 4:23)
30 May 16
Originally posted by sonshipAnd those who dont progress?
The varied conditions of the heart could well describe every or most Christian's hearts throughout their spiritual progress.
The fact of the matter is that many when first hearing the Gospel rejected it out of hand. It was stolen from our hearts. The heart was hardened by too much worldly traffic making it hard for divine life to penetrate.
Latter we ...[text shortened]... our heart with all vigilance, For from it are the issues of life." (Proverbs 4:23) [/quote][/b]
Are you claiming that you are the judge and you know that they will get eternal life?
Or will you leave the judging to Christ?
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30 May 16
1 edit
On one of these threads (possibly more than one) we are talking about the Spirit of Christ coming to make an abode with His lovers.
Now the phrase "the FRUIT of the Spirit" should indicate that FIRST the Spirit comes. And if all else is normal the indwelling Spirit should produce FRUIT as the Spirit's issue in the believer's life.
" But the FRUIT of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control, against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22,23)
As you can see, this is what should be normal when Christ comes to make an abode with the lover of Him and the keeper of His word (John 14:23) . As a result of this Person indwelling the believer in conjunction with the believer's abiding in Him, the FRUIT of this Person comes out in the believer's life.
The list is only representative and by no means exhaustive.
We can both say that the Holy Spirit comes more into the soul as the believer manifests these FRUITS. And we can certainly say the FRUITS themselves are the outflow and issue of the indwelling Spirit.
[
" Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine; you are the branches ..." (See John 15:4-5)
Yes, yes, I know about the branch taken away and caste into the fire in verse 6.
31 May 16
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999What do you think jaywill would make of the following in regards to "fruit"?:
And those who dont progress?
Are you claiming that you are the judge and you know that they will get eternal life?
Or will you leave the judging to Christ?
Matthew 7
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Do you think that he'd be able to wrap his mind around the fact that in the parable of the sower when speaking of "the man who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit ", Jesus would be speaking of a "good tree" that "cannot produce bad fruit"?
That only those who KEEP His commandments are "good tree[s]" that "cannot produce bad fruit"?
That it is only those who "bring forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”?
That everyone else is "cut down and thrown into the fire".
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31 May 16
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell, you could just ask jaywill.
What do you think jaywill would make of the following in regards to "fruit"?:
Matthew 7
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Do you think that he'd be a ...[text shortened]... d, some sixty, and some thirty.”?
That everyone else is "cut down and thrown into the fire".
Tell me you gave a definitive reply to my question about the Lord's supper commandment, and I just have not seen it yet.
Or are you just still sweeping it aside ?
31 May 16
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThere didn't seem to be much point. As I posted earlier:
Well, you could just ask jaywill.
Tell me you gave a definitive reply to my question about the Lord's supper commandment, and I just have not seen it yet.
Or are you just still sweeping it aside ?
What Jesus clearly stated in John 15:10 and John 14:21,23 do not fit within your beliefs. All you've done since I've posted them is engage in incoherent ranting and argumentum ad hominem in the hopes that all YOUR "hand waving" will distract from this fact.
To make matters worse, in the midst of all that nonsense, you show that you don't understand Matthew 26:26-27 (or Luke 19:20-21) and "willfully ignore parts of the parable of the Sower" as rajk999 showed. It's truly remarkable how vehemently you are opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
At least with rajk999 I know I'll likely get a thoughtful considered RATIONAL answer even if I don't agree with him.