10 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThis is a can of worms. I'll risk it and tell you that I hold to a dispensational view of scripture. I know you're much smarter than I, so I won't try to debate this issue with you, except to say, that to be honest, Romans 11:22 appears to present a problem. I'm not prepared to address this with a meaningful argument.
I understand the appeal of 'once saved always saved' theology, but where is it expressly confirmed in the gospel? Where does the bible expressly indicate that salvation once gained cannot be lost? Implicit arguments, it seems, are all one has when defending the 'once saved always saved' gospel; meanwhile the bible expressly states in no uncertai ...[text shortened]... ed you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off" (Romans 11:22).
But I would ask you this question. If we are saved by grace apart from works, then what or why do we need to do something to maintain our salvation? There's nothing one can do to earn the free gift of eternal life. Doesn't it follow that there is nothing one can do or should have to do to keep it?
Romans 5:20 "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."
To suggest that one could lose there salvation, is to say that there is a sin that the blood of Christ cannot wash away.
I've never known a christian to say they don't want the gift anymore. I've know a few discouraged christians fall down a few times. I have.
Those who profess to have once been a christian and then changed their mind, for whatever reason, are either lying, diluted, or were never saved to begin with.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdGood post blakbuzzrd.
Yeah, but FreakyKBH asked how salvation is wrought, though, and in the context of discussing foundational elements of salvation.
The first question to ask: "if salvation is wrought, who is its wright?"
I read his comment to suggest that you should start your analysis with the the initial work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the soon-to-be-believ ...[text shortened]... KBH will of course have to confirm whether or not I interpreted his question appropriately.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasDo you think we are only left with an Arminian or a Calvinist interpretation of the passages?
Yours is an implicit argument. Please, if you have biblical grounds for denying the portent of the scriptures presented in this thread, by all means bring them to the table. So far everyone who defends your position has neglected the scriptures which are expressly contrary to it. The position I am defending is clearly represented in the word, whereas ...[text shortened]... t is expressly stated, or is there a deeper understanding of God's salvation yet to be grasped?
Do you think that there are only these two schools of thought concerning the topic?
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10 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasHere is a start....what does forever mean to you?
Yours is an implicit argument. Please, if you have biblical grounds for denying the portent of the scriptures presented in this thread, by all means bring them to the table. So far everyone who defends your position has neglected the scriptures which are expressly contrary to it. The position I am defending is clearly represented in the word, whereas ...[text shortened]... t is expressly stated, or is there a deeper understanding of God's salvation yet to be grasped?
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(NKJ)
BTW...the verses you quoted from Hebrews are written to Jews who were still under law, not understanding the grace of God. The Church Epistles written to the Church are so addressed, but not Hebrews.
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10 Jun 07
I reread your point and I understand what you are saying. The difference, I would say, was did that person really make Jesus Lord in the first place? Eternal life, if it can be lost, was never really eternal life, and the English, Greek, etc is rendered useless in it's usage. God cannot go back on a promise.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterGood Post.
I reread your point and I understand what you are saying. The difference, I would say, was did that person really make Jesus Lord in the first place? Eternal life, if it can be lost, was never really eternal life, and the English, Greek, etc is rendered useless in it's usage. God cannot go back on a promise.
10 Jun 07
3 edits
Originally posted by josephwBut I would ask you this question. If we are saved by grace apart from works, then what or why do we need to do something to maintain our salvation? There's nothing one can do to earn the free gift of eternal life. Doesn't it follow that there is nothing one can do or should have to do to keep it?
This is a can of worms. I'll risk it and tell you that I hold to a dispensational view of scripture. I know you're much smarter than I, so I won't try to debate this issue with you, except to say, that to be honest, Romans 11:22 appears to present a problem. I'm not prepared to address this with a meaningful argument.
But I would ask you this question. I d, for whatever reason, are either lying, diluted, or were never saved to begin with.
"Once saved, always saved" theology (Calvinism) is the opposite extreme of Catholicism's theology which claims that man can somehow merit his own salvation. Simply put, Calvinism is an overcompensation for false theology, which, in its flight to the opposite extreme, became itself a false theology. But the real truth is, to quote Wordsworth, "something far more deeply interfused."
The issue you are no doubt confused about is what kind of works God expects us to perform after we are 'born from above'. Your protestant upbringing probably causes you to cringe whenever 'works' are mentioned; and you are most likely thinking of the works of the law (works of the flesh) when considering what might be required of us after we are 'born-again'. I will try to remedy this, if I can. Please consider this passage:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Galatians 3:2-3).
Notice how Paul indicates that the life lived in the Spirit is a growing towards perfection. Clearly God does not mean for us to become perfect by our own human efforts, through works of the flesh (the law), but instead through the Spirit which he provided to us.
Becoming more and more like Christ is the central purpose of a Christian's life, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48), yet Calvinistic "once saved, always saved" theology effectively nullifies that, even though scripture declares God has recreated us in Christ for the very purpose of doing good works: "He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago" (Ephesians 2:10). That is to say, our purpose is not to be saved, our purpose is to glorify God. God saved us to glorify himself. And scripture makes it clear that there are indeed dire consequences for unprofitable and fruitless servants, those who 'grieve' the Holy Spirit, which I've already previously outlined.
So what are the works which God requires of believers? "Then they said to him, ‘What must we do to perform the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent'" (John 6:28-29). Faith is work. Faith requires man's participation to work. The Calvinistic assertion that redemption is completely God's work, and that man is merely a passive robot in his salvation, contradicts what Christ says about the work of believing. Repentance, confession of Christ as Lord, and Baptism are all necessary for salvation, each of which requires the participation of the believer. To quote an anonymous online author, "The only intelligent answer is that works God has required, including faith, are not works 'whereby man can earn salvation or boast.' These acts reflect favorably on God, not on the man doing them. All God required works are simply, put another way, man's acceptance and appropriation of the wonderful grace God provides."
We are not subject to the law of sin and death, if we are subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which is a putting to death of the deeds of the flesh, the fruit of which there is no law against: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law" (Galatians 5:16-18).
(BTW, which is worse: living a life of sin without repentance after being saved; or believing that God's grace is earned through obedience to the law?)
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by jaywillI don't know. All I know is, there is a deeper understanding of salvation which allows for no contradictions, and it is that understanding which incorporates the whole of scripture, not just certain aspects of scripture. I'm not content with a theology which is merely correct in what it asserts, while being false in what it denies.
Do you think we are only left with an Arminian or a Calvinist interpretation of the passages?
Do you think that there are only these two schools of thought concerning the topic?
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterHeb 10:14
Here is a start....what does forever mean to you?
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(NKJ)
BTW...the verses you quoted from Hebrews are written to Jews who were still under law, not understanding the grace of God. The Church Epistles written to the Church are so addressed, but not Hebrews.
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(NKJ)
'Sanctified' is the key to that verse. He has perfected who? Those who are being sanctified. Sanctification is exactly the thing which Calvinistic "once saved, always saved" theology does away with. Sancitification being the growing toward perfection through obedience to the Holy Spirit.
Do you think God calls us to holiness in vain? Without purpose? Are his warnings without teeth? Consider these passages as they underscore the importance of the work of faith:
"Be on your guard, so that you do not lose what we have worked for, but may receive a full reward. Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son" (2 John 1:8-9).
"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent" (Revelation 2:4-5).
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterNotice in the following passage how God indeed has the ability to 'go back on his promise' by blotting out a believer's name from the Book of Life, if a believer refuses to obey the Holy Spirit unto sanctification:
I reread your point and I understand what you are saying. The difference, I would say, was did that person really make Jesus Lord in the first place? Eternal life, if it can be lost, was never really eternal life, and the English, Greek, etc is rendered useless in it's usage. God cannot go back on a promise.
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels" (Revelation 3:5).
11 Jun 07
I have stayed out of the fray thus far. Mainly because I can see both points of view. On the one hand it is troubling to think that salvation can be lost, especially if all we need to do is confess Christ as Lord and believe he was raised from the dead and also because we are saved by grace. Conversly it is equally troubling, if not more troubling, to have the mindset that one can live a life of sin despite their conversion. If one looks at the ministry of Christ, who does Christ verbally assault? Is it the "sinner"? No, in fact, it is the religious leaders. Do they not believe in God? Is there entire life pursuit supposidly to seek God? Yet Christ called them hypocrites and blasted them again and again. When I say "religious leaders" I am in no way implying that ALL religious leaders were so inclined. Nicodemous comes to mind who was not labeled as such. However, the fact remains that many in these positions did not pracitice what they preached. Either they did not believe what they preached or chose not to practice what they said is the best way to live ones life. They had an air of self righteousness about them and scoffed at Christ for conversing with mere sinners. You may say that this is all good and well, however, Christ had not yet died for our sins as of yet. However, I will tell you that I see NO difference in terms of the fate of the hypocrites during the time of Christ and the ones in present day Christiandom. The best way to lead is to live by example, bottom line. Words we speak will either be judged to be true or false based upon the way we live our lives. If our testimony is how Chirst changed us and freed us from the chains of sin our lives should reflect such a change. If, however, our lives to not reflect such a change, what value are we to the kingdom of God in terms of showing the world the power of God? How are we then different from the world? What insintive does one then have in coming to Christ if Chrisitians live no differently than the rest of the world? I think this is why Christ blasted the hypocritical religious leaders. It was they, and they alone that stood in the way of showing the world the power of the kingdom of God. I say that Christ's entire life was going about doing the will of the Father. Therefore, if we are not so inclined, should we call ourselves Christians? Granted, there is NOTHING we can do to earn salvation, however, are there things we can do in which to loose such a gift? The verdict is yet to be handed down, however, I just pray that none of us try and find out the hard way. I am not saying that falling short in pursuit of the will of God is the problem, rather, it is failing to pursue the will of our God that is the crux of the problem. After all, the number one commandment is to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. So if we love him we will try to please him even if we fall short in this pursuit from time to time.
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11 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasYes, but what you are quoting in the book of Revelation is way off base. This is not written to the church of today. It is written to a church after the rapture. This church is under a completely different set of rules. The time of "Grace" has passed. If you take this as a church of today, their would be many contradictions. Look at these differences....
Notice in the following passage how God indeed has the ability to 'go back on his promise' by blotting out a believer's name from the Book of Life, if a believer refuses to obey the Holy Spirit unto sanctification:
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels" (Revelation 3:5).
Rev 2:20
20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality (and eat things sacrificed to idols.)
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:4-8
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols,( we know that an idol is nothing in the world), and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
(NKJ)
There are many contradictions between the church epistles and Revelations, that is, if we do not see Dispensationalism. In fact, God's whole tone is different for this book. It is almost like the OT.
I believe it is God's good pleasure to save us. I don't know why, I am just glad He did. To think salvation is conditional, is not a cloud I would like hanging over my head. I don't believe God wants this either. It reminds me of the Srewtape letters....Believe on Jesus and (pick your poison).....for salvation.
Rom 11:29
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(NKJ)
Some people cannot accept God's Grace for whatever reason. Grace is undeserved divine favor. A true Christian is thankful and would want to draw closer to God and put on the mind of Christ, and do the good works. But some are tricked and fall into temptation and fall away. But I believe they are still saved. Heck, if God were to reject a Christian for whatever reason, well....my earthly father would be more righteous than God!
Eph 1:11-14
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
(NKJ)
I Jn 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
(NKJ)
A Christian sins and he can be out of fellowship. He may not hear from God because of unconfessed sin, but he remains a son! The reason Ephesians says "adoption" is because under Roman law, an adopted son could not be "disowned."
God chose these words to make that point.
Eph 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(NKJ)
11 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis is not written to the church of today. It is written to a church after the rapture. This church is under a completely different set of rules. The time of "Grace" has passed. If you take this as a church of today, their would be many contradictions.
Yes, but what you are quoting in the book of Revelation is way off base. This is not written to the church of today. It is written to a church after the rapture. This church is under a completely different set of rules. The time of "Grace" has passed. If you take this as a church of today, their would be many contradictions. Look at these differences.... sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(NKJ)
I disagree with your assumption that the book of Revelation's warnings to the seven churches are post-rapture. Obviously the time of grace had not yet passed for them because Jesus is still calling them to repentance. There is no reason to repent if the time of grace is over. Furthermore, if these people were Christians, then why weren't they raptured as well? But they were Christians because Christ called them to remember their first love: "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent" (Revelation 2:4-5). It is obvious that Christ's exortations in the book of Revelation are meant for us as well.
To think salvation is conditional, is not a cloud I would like hanging over my head. I don't believe God wants this either. It reminds me of the Srewtape letters....Believe on Jesus and (pick your poison).....for salvation.
Once again, I'm not talking about earning grace. I'm talking about the purpose of receiving God's grace. What is it? Are we fulfilling it? Are we becoming more like Jesus? Are we following Christ by being obedient to his Holy Spirit? Are we bearing spiritual fruit? Are we continuing to abide in Christ, the Vine? My point is, the answers to these questions are of monumental importance, more so than the 'once saved, always saved' theology lets on. I believe the admonitions in scripture directed at unprofitable and fruitless servants are real and are to be heeded as surely as one fears the Lord.
A true Christian is thankful and would want to draw closer to God and put on the mind of Christ, and do the good works.
But according to Calvinistic theology a 'true' Christian is anyone God picks, regardless of how he lives his life. You are making a distinction which your beliefs do not allow (i.e. true vs. false Christians based on lifestyle).
A Christian sins and he can be out of fellowship. He may not hear from God because of unconfessed sin, but he remains a son.
Again, I'm not talking about earning grace. Neither am I talking about living a sinless life. We all know how immensely difficult that really is. What I'm talking about is obeying the Holy Spirit. Yes, Christians fall into sin from time to time, and the Lord, through his Holy Spirit, always convicts our hearts and draws us back to repentance. Repentance itself is obedience to the Holy Spirit -- a 'work' required by God--part of God's sanctification of his saints. However, God, out of his great love for us, gave us stern warning against persistance in sin. Constant backsliding 'sears the conscience' and 'hardens the heart', with the very real danger of a believer coming to the point of not being able to repent anymore. Thus...
""For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘The dog turns back to its own vomit’, and, ‘The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud'" (2 Peter 2:20-22).
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasHold your horses fella! I was raised a catholic not a protestant. I'm not a Calvinist either. I said my theology was dispensational.
[b]But I would ask you this question. If we are saved by grace apart from works, then what or why do we need to do something to maintain our salvation? There's nothing one can do to earn the free gift of eternal life. Doesn't it follow that there is nothing one can do or should have to do to keep it?
"Once saved, always saved" theology (Calvinism) ...[text shortened]... that God's grace is earned through obedience to the law?)[/b]
And I'm not confused about anything either.(well, not exactly)
The issue we were discussing was simply about whether or not one could lose his or her salvation. And that is all I was talking about.
Do we agree that salvation is a free gift that cannot be earned or obtained by any work such as repentance or baptism or keeping of the law?
The Galatians were foolish because they had been bewitched into thinking that they could please God and be "made perfect by the flesh".
Col. 2:6 " As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:" We received Christ through faith and it is through faith that we grow to maturity and do the work that God has already made for us to do.
Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
For me the issue here isn't about what "works" are for, but whether or not those "works" can keep us secure in our salvation.
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by whodeyI see NO difference in terms of the fate of the hypocrites during the time of Christ and the ones in present day Christiandom. The best way to lead is to live by example, bottom line. Words we speak will either be judged to be true or false based upon the way we live our lives. If our testimony is how Chirst changed us and freed us from the chains of sin our lives should reflect such a change. If, however, our lives to not reflect such a change, what value are we to the kingdom of God in terms of showing the world the power of God? How are we then different from the world?
I have stayed out of the fray thus far. Mainly because I can see both points of view. On the one hand it is troubling to think that salvation can be lost, especially if all we need to do is confess Christ as Lord and believe he was raised from the dead and also because we are saved by grace. Conversly it is equally troubling, if not more troubling, to have ...[text shortened]... love him we will try to please him even if we fall short in this pursuit from time to time.
Hats off to you, whodey!