11 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiter1 John 3:7-10 makes sense to me. It doesn't matter whether or not you make an affirmative mental assent to the message of Christ, whether you repent or whether you are baptized in his name; if by the way you live you prove yourself to be a child of the devil, then you are not truly a child of God. Those who are children of God cannot be snatched out of God's hand, are sealed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, and born of incorruptible seed. Whereas those who are not true children of God follow their own sinful ways. Where, then, is there grounds for saying that it does not matter how a person lives after they are saved?
Alright then....suppose I turn this around and ask you some questions....
#1. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
-John 10:28 (NKJV)
Is someone going to snatch you out of his hand?
2#.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gosp ...[text shortened]...
What does "remain" mean here? For that matter, what does "cannot sin" mean here?
11 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterMakes sense to me, though I think you might be in a pretty small minority. Most seem to be of the opinion that even if they sin, they still have the guarantee of salvation.
Exactly....
Perhaps the real question is, "When is salvation gained?"
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
11 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI didn't say that. You are the one that claims salvation can be lost, did you not?🙂
1 John 3:7-10 makes sense to me. It doesn't matter whether or not you make an affirmative mental assent to the message of Christ, whether you repent or whether you are baptized in his name; if by the way you live you prove yourself to be a child of the devil, then you are not truly a child of God. Those who are children of God cannot be snatched out of ...[text shortened]... , is there grounds for saying that it does not matter how a person lives after they are saved?
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhen a person is filled to overflowing with holy spirit. When he has made Jesus Lord over his/her life. What the verses imply is that Christians have two natures. The old and the new. The new nature is incorruptable and does not sin. The old nature does. That is the constant battle in the mind of any Christian. Our fight is a spiritual battle from within and without. But God, through Christ gives us the tools to do battle. They are called the nine manefestations of the spirit. Speaking in tongues, word of knowledge, etc. We also have God's Word to help us renew our minds and be transformed into that new person in Christ and well pleasing to the Father.
Makes sense to me, though I think you might be in a pretty small minority. Most seem to be of the opinion that even if they sin, they still have the guarantee of salvation.
Perhaps the real question is, "When is salvation gained?"
Here is what really happens when a Christian gives up....
1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(NKJ)
Notice he is not lost....
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterWhat I am doing is attempting to disprove the misconception that it does not matter how one lives after one is saved. This is the belief of a great many people (probably the majority of Christians now), that the way a person lives has nothing to do with being Christian. "Once saved, always saved," with obedience to God's holy commandment being merely an option, since God will never reject you anyway.
I didn't say that. You are the one that claims salvation can be lost, did you not?🙂
BTW, salvation cannot be lost once it is gained, but we haven't received salvation yet. Salvation is something we are looking forward to...
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasOn your first point I agree. But the person who continues to sin willfully is not born again.
What I am doing is attempting to disprove the misconception that it does not matter how one lives after one is saved. This is the belief of a great many people (probably the majority of Christians now), that the way a person lives has nothing to do with being Christian. "Once saved, always saved," with obedience to God's holy commandment being merely a ...[text shortened]... but we haven't received salvation yet. Salvation is something we are looking forward to...
On your second point I again have to disagree. When I first spoke in tongues, I knew I was saved. No, the purchased possesion has not been completed. That goes without saying. We are still here. But the guarantee is telling me, you can take it to the bank. That is why Paul speaks in past tense terms such as this....
Col 3:1-3
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
(NKJ)
Col 1:13
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
(NKJ)
Eph 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(NKJ)
God speak in terms of past tense. He already sees us seated in the heavenlies. I believe one of Satan's tools is to make Christians doubt if they are saved, or if they are loved. That is why this arguement struck a nerve with me....Christians are to come boldly to the throne of Grace. They won't if they doubt they are saved, or if God really loves them.
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterWhat happens if you are 'saved' and then blaspheme against the
On your first point I agree. But the person who continues to sin willfully is not born again.
On your second point I again have to disagree. When I first spoke in tongues, I knew I was saved. No, the purchased possesion has not been completed. That goes without saying. We are still here. But the guarantee is telling me, you can take it to the bank. Th ...[text shortened]... to the throne of Grace. They won't if they doubt they are saved, or if God really loves them.
Holy Spirit?
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasBut salvation is that which we are yet to receive: "This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed"
[b]I don't think in any case the warning is a loss of the gift of eternal redemption.
But salvation is that which we are yet to receive: "This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11). Why is it inconceivable that someone can suff ...[text shortened]... [/b]
Again, what in dispensationalism gives you the confidence to assume as much?[/b]
Concerning the redemption of our bodies, it is a future event. In that aspect salvation is yet to come at the transfiguration of our bodies.
Some aspects of full salvation are future oriented.
(Romans 13:11). Why is it inconceivable that someone can suffer shipwreck in the faith (1 Timothy 1:19) through overt disobedience to the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ?
This is not at all inconceivable to me.
But Paul writes:
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself" (2 Timothy 2:13)
Yes we may become faithless. We may lose the reward of the coming kingdom manifestation. He may deny us that. But He will not deny Himself. At our faithlessness He remains faithful. He has regenerated us. He has begotten us. He cannot deny that His life has been dispensed into our spirit though we did go on to live by that life.
This is a matter of being a defeated Christian or an overcoming Christian. This is not a matter of loss of eternal redemption. He cannot deny Himself.
2 Peter 2 contains a harrowing description of people who first believe and come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, yet eventually become "slaves of corruption"; for whom "the deepest darkness has been reserved;"
And some of the parables show that some servants will be cast into the outer darkness. The outer darkness into which the slothful servant is cast must be the darkness of which Peter also speaks.
Being cast into the outer darkness cannot last longer than one thousand years. It may be some portion of that depending on the severity of the punishment.
The unwise virgins went away to purchase oil for they had run out. When they came back with the expected oil the feast was in progress. Now if oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit then you have to interpret Matthew 25 to mean that some who have the Holy Spirit will perish eternally.
This is a mistake. The unwise virgins went away to purchase the oil, the Holy Spirit. But they were late in doing so, The wedding feast was in progress and they were excluded. The wedding feast lasts a temporary time. So they must be temporarily shut out of that celebration.
But they DO have the oil now, though they are late. I reject that a person with the Holy Spirit will go eternally into perdition. So the five unwise virgins will suffer a dispensational discipline.
I would further point out that all ten virgins had oil initially. They all being virgins and they all having oil and they all going forth to meet the Bridegroom surely means that they all were saved beleivers.
The difference is in the location of the oil. The wise virgins had oil in their vessels with their lamps. The foolish virgins had only oil in their lamps.
The lamp is the spirit of man. And to receive oil in the lamp is to be born of God with the Holy Spirit. This is a gift.
The vessel filled with extra oil is the human soul. This oil is not a gift. It must be paid for. One must pay a price of denying the self and following the Lord to obtain the extra oil in one's soul.
The foolish virgins had the initial gift of the Holy Spirit in their spirit. But they deemed it unecessary to pay the price to purchase the extra portion of the Spirit for their mind and emotion and will - the human soul. They were not transformed in personality.
They eventially had to go and pay the price to obtain that extra oil. When they did it was too late as far as the wedding feast celebration was concerned. They became sanctified anyway - but were LATE in their sanctification.
Do you understand this?
Five were wise and five were foolish. This does not mean that half the Christians will be wise and half will be foolish. Five is a number meaning respnsibility. Five wise and five foolish means that the responsibility of whether we will be wise or foolish rests on us the Christians.
The regeneration of the new birth is a gift. The transformation of the soul by the saturation of our personality with the Holy Spirit requires that we pay the price of obedience to the Lord Jesus.
We choose whether we will be wise about this or unwise.
12 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterI believe one of Satan's tools is to make Christians doubt if they are saved, or if they are loved. That is why this argument struck a nerve with me....Christians are to come boldly to the throne of Grace. They won't if they doubt they are saved, or if God really loves them.
On your first point I agree. But the person who continues to sin willfully is not born again.
On your second point I again have to disagree. When I first spoke in tongues, I knew I was saved. No, the purchased possesion has not been completed. That goes without saying. We are still here. But the guarantee is telling me, you can take it to the bank. Th to the throne of Grace. They won't if they doubt they are saved, or if God really loves them.
I hope you don't think I'm here to make you doubt whether you are saved or not. It is obvious that God's warnings for believers are real, to abide in him and be fruitful. These are not Satan's fiery darts. "Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? —unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!" (2 Corinthians 13:5).
Contrary to what you assert, that people don't come boldly to the throne of grace because they doubt they are saved, it's how a Christian lives which gives him that boldness: "Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions. Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God" (1 John 3:18-19).
EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with everything else you've affirmed here. It's also good to hear that you speak in tongues and believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
12 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasNo, you are not causing me to doubt anything. I am concerned of the readers who remain silent and ponder. My point is that I know without a doubt that I am saved. I know that I will never be snatched out of His hand, and that I am seated in the heavenlies. My job now is to be a light to a dark world, and try to win as many as possible, God willing. The only snatching is to release them from satan's grimy hands and set them free. God bless....over and out. 🙂
[b]I believe one of Satan's tools is to make Christians doubt if they are saved, or if they are loved. That is why this argument struck a nerve with me....Christians are to come boldly to the throne of Grace. They won't if they doubt they are saved, or if God really loves them.
I hope you don't think I'm here to make you doubt whether you are sav ...[text shortened]... ood to hear that you speak in tongues and believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.[/b]
12 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillYes, you are right. I understand what you're saying. I concede.
[b]But salvation is that which we are yet to receive: "This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed"
Concerning the redemption of our bodies, it is a future event. In that aspect salvation is yet to come at the transfiguration of our bodies.
edience to the Lord Jesus.
We choose whether we will be wise about this or unwise.[/b]
EDIT: However, I'm still wary of dispensationalism's claims.