cartwheels

Originally posted by knightmeister
It is not much of a stretch that there was one suicidal person who was praying to God to please give them a sign.

And then, what accounts as a sign? All it might take is a smile, or anything unusual. COLETTI


Notice what has happened here. You are obviously very knowledgable about the issues of wishful thinking and people seeing what they want one did and the eggs on your face not mine. You should learn to read and not skim read.

This would be an excellent point if you hadn't completely missed the fact that the woman didn't just ask for a sign but did ask for a cartwheel

You are right. I did miss that - completely - mea culpa.

you have assumed that the story had less substance than it does and completely missed that part of the story. Infact , YOU were seeing what YOU wanted to see. My guess is ...

I don't see why you are assuming anything about my motives. I merely misread the story.

My assumption is that your assumption is that the average thicko Christian wouldn't have thought it through properly.

You are speaking to a "thicko Christian". 😲 I never assume that just because someone is a Christian, he is deficient in reason or logic. Certainly there are plenty of examples of thick-headed Christians, but it has no relation to them being Christians. And I know many Christians who consider sound reasoning as essential to their worldview.

This one did and the eggs on your face not mine. You should learn to read and not skim read.

Again, mea culpa. I did skim the story. I withdraw my earlier comments as inapplicable. Never mind. 😳

Originally posted by Coletti

This would be an excellent point if you hadn't completely missed the fact that the woman didn't just ask for a sign but did ask for a cartwheel

You are right. I did miss that - completely - mea culpa.
[quote] you have assumed that the story had less substance than it does and completely missed that part of the story. Infact , YOU were se ...[text shortened]... d skim the story. I withdraw my earlier comments as inapplicable. Never mind. 😳

So you are a Christian then? I'm confused. How do you end up attacking a story that is a perfectly good example of how God interacts with people? I'm sorry if I was a bit hard on you but you sounded like an atheist. I was probably tired anyhow. After a while one gets tired of being patronised by atheists who smugly assume that if one has half a brain one could never be a christian.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So you are a Christian then? I'm confused. How do you end up attacking a story that is a perfectly good example of how God interacts with people? I'm sorry if I was a bit hard on you but you sounded like an atheist. I was probably tired anyhow. After a while one gets tired of being patronised by atheists who smugly assume that if one has half a brain one could never be a christian.

Yes. I'm also a moderator on the Christian Logic Forum - http://christianlogic.com/forums/

As for the story - well I don't know if I agree that God interacts with people that way - or at least I don't think that's something we can count on. God certainly and clearly speaks to us through the Scriptures. Impulses and "feelings" often lead us into sin. I don't believe God goes around whispering in our ears to do strange and inexplicable actions. I also think it is a sin to test God, to ask God for specific signs or to "prove" himself.

Originally posted by Coletti
Yes. I'm also a moderator on the Christian Logic Forum - http://christianlogic.com/forums/

As for the story - well I don't know if I agree that God interacts with people that way - or at least I don't think that's something we can count on. God certainly and clearly speaks to us through the Scriptures. Impulses and "feelings" often lead us into sin. ...[text shortened]... lso think it is a sin to test God, to ask God for specific signs or to "prove" himself.

But God has whispered to all of us to do stupid things ! Who in their right mind would pick up their cross and follow a crucified carpenter? The whole Gospel is foolishness to the world - a cartwheel is nothing compared to this.

Jesus asked Peter to walk on water , you can't get much stranger than that!

If Christianity means anything then it has to be active in our world and that means we should expect so called "coincidences" like this. What's your problem?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes , God was able to influence the young man to go and do the cartwheel although he may not have done as well for all I know. Maybe God's control over his life was such that he was able to ensure that he would do the cartwheel , but this could only happen if the man had already freely agreed to hand his life over to God.

This thread just strikes me as funny, that's all. Within context, either your God properly settled the old hag's bet and made it such that antecedents were causally sufficient to elicit the man's choosing to cartwheel; or not. If the former, then you've presented a little example whereby your God has robbed some poor bastard of his libertarian free will (which I couldn't care less about, but it's embarrassing for you given your sympathies); if the latter, then there is just no reason to think it has anything really to do with your God, is there?

It just strikes me as funny how you go on and on ad nauseam about the goodness of libertarian free will and how God must always provide for it as a precondition for other essential goods, blah blah blah, how God doesn't want robots, etc, yakety, yakety. And then your warm and fuzzy, uplifting "anecdotal evidence" is of God making some poor idiot do a cartwheel.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So you are a Christian then? I'm confused. How do you end up attacking a story that is a perfectly good example of how God interacts with people? I'm sorry if I was a bit hard on you but you sounded like an atheist. I was probably tired anyhow. After a while one gets tired of being patronised by atheists who smugly assume that if one has half a brain one could never be a christian.

Not to interrupt the logical flow, but...

To the contrary, this example is a perfectly good example of how God does not interact with people at this time in history. The Bible is replete with God's dispensational methodology so there should be no confusion as to God's directives.

For the time we are living in now, God's method stands in opposition to what this Reader's Digest-bound aw-shucks tear-jerker suggests. This kind of drivel one finds in any number of Chicken Soup-type "inspiriational" "books," and is as far removed from the Christian life as could be.

That may sound harsh, but think of it this way: a stable-minded unbeliever wouldn't dream of listening to such disembodied directives and cannot, therefore, consider such action as results spiritual.

The unstable Christian, however, who takes this as God's direction is deliberately disregarding God's clear directives and yet resolutely claiming they are being spiritual. God's call to the believer is "grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ." Testing our thinking against the provided standard of thinking (i.e., Bible doctrine) is the first step in fulfilling His command. Nowhere does He tell us to follow every foolish notion which may come to our head, or moreover, to test such silliness against a standard of our own sensibilities.

Back to your regular debates.

Originally posted by LemonJello
This thread just strikes me as funny, that's all. Within context, either your God properly settled the old hag's bet and made it such that antecedents were causally sufficient to elicit the man's choosing to cartwheel; or not. If the former, then you've presented a little example whereby your God has robbed some poor bastard of his libertarian free will ...[text shortened]... fuzzy, uplifting "anecdotal evidence" is of God making some poor idiot do a cartwheel.

It just strikes me as funny how you go on and on ad nauseam about the goodness of libertarian free will and how God must always provide for it as a precondition for other essential goods, blah blah blah, how God doesn't want robots, etc, yakety, yakety. And then your warm and fuzzy, uplifting "anecdotal evidence" is of God making some poor idiot do a cartwheel. LEMON

I don't understand your point. You think he forced him to do the cartwheel? The way the story was presented the man did the cartwheel as a response to God in faith. God planted the idea in his mind and the man (recognising God's promptings ) decided to respond in trust and faith that there was a reason why God wanted him to do this. God would have been able to use this man in such a way because he was open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. He would have already prayed to God and submitted his life to God's purposes. God can only use people in certain ways if they are open to him doing so and willing to follow and take risks (including looking a fool) . There's nothing robotic about God using us in this way , infact it's the opposite because God uses us to serve humanity in love and compassion and wherever there is love , compassion and humanity people become alive and free and real and whole - NOT- robots. I'm sure this man was overjoyed to be used in this way to provide a creative response to a woman's suffering. He would no doubt have been blessed by the experience. To be filled with the love and compassion of christ and participate in helping someone is what all christians aspire to.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not to interrupt the logical flow, but...

To the contrary, this example is a perfectly good example of how God does not interact with people at this time in history. The Bible is replete with God's dispensational methodology so there should be no confusion as to God's directives.

For the time we are living in now, God's method stands in opp ...[text shortened]... ness against a standard of our own sensibilities.

Back to your regular debates.

What can I say? The fruit of what happened was that a soul was brought to christ instead of committing suicide.

"By their fruits shall you know them"

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not to interrupt the logical flow, but...

To the contrary, this example is a perfectly good example of how God does not interact with people at this time in history. The Bible is replete with God's dispensational methodology so there should be no confusion as to God's directives.

For the time we are living in now, God's method stands in opp ...[text shortened]... ness against a standard of our own sensibilities.

Back to your regular debates.

I have one more response to this. Why do you assume that God would not do anything like this? Has he no sense of imagination? Does he not yearn to respond to prayer and meet people at their deepest need? Is he not alive and creative?

Luckily for this woman God made use of a Christian with a dynamic , imaginative concept of God who was prepared to do this. If this Christian had thought like you she would now be dead.

Your Christianity is not one I recognise. Your God is too safe and predictable.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Luckily for this woman God made use of a Christian with a dynamic , imaginative concept of God who was prepared to do this. If this Christian had thought like you she would now be dead.

Your Christianity is not one I recognise. Your God is too safe and predictable.

I don't know about Freaky's God but yours sounds like random chance combined with a natural human tendency to look for patterns.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't understand your point.

So I see. Don't worry about it, then.

(Verily, the last thing I need is another insufferable discussion with you on free will. No offense.)

Originally posted by Penguin
I don't know about Freaky's God but yours sounds like random chance combined with a natural human tendency to look for patterns.

--- Penguin.

You have also missed the God who reaches out to someone in love.

Originally posted by knightmeister
What can I say? The fruit of what happened was that a soul was brought to christ instead of committing suicide.

"By their fruits shall you know them"

What can I say? The fruit of what happened was that a soul was brought to christ instead of committing suicide.
Whatever you can say is limited only by you. However, what you did say is that the old woman simply delayed offing herself by at least the time covered in the story. There was no mention of salvation.

Nonetheless, even if the woman came to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, pray tell, what was the message and how was it conveyed? I find your defense of silliness, um, silly. In no translation currently available will you find silliness listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit. Moreover, since one of the staple and dogmatic commands for believers is, as stated, to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ--- in addition to admonitions to be sober-minded, etc.--- such silliness is exposed all the more as off-base.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have one more response to this. Why do you assume that God would not do anything like this? Has he no sense of imagination? Does he not yearn to respond to prayer and meet people at their deepest need? Is he not alive and creative?

Luckily for this woman God made use of a Christian with a dynamic , imaginative concept of God who was prepared to ...[text shortened]... now be dead.

Your Christianity is not one I recognise. Your God is too safe and predictable.

Why do you assume that God would not do anything like this?
I make no such assumption. As partial support, consider the opening salvo of Hebrews:

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

The times of prophets and various ways of transmission is (temporarily) set aside.

Has he no sense of imagination?
Seriously?

Does he not yearn...
Not exactly, no.

...respond to prayer and meet people at their deepest need?
A person's deepest need is known by God, not necessarily by the person. People often confuse their wants for their needs. God, with perfect insight and analysis, knows both the need and the solution. Cartwheels ain't it.

Is he not alive and creative?
We're still here, arent' we?

If this Christian had thought like you she would now be dead.
Assuming the veracity of the amusing heart-warmer, her death would still not be the end of the world. There exists a fate much, much worse than death, and a million cart wheels cannot express the only escape possible to that fate.

Your Christianity is not one I recognise.
Continuing your present course, your Christianity will be rendered unrecognizable to Him. Thankfully, you seem to have made at least one good decision while on the planet, so all is not lost for you. Perhaps if I were to perform a succession of form-perfect cart wheels in front of you, you may pay greater attention to my warning to get back on track (i.e., sticking with doctrine), but--- admittedly--- I have totally neglected that aspect of "Christian service."

Your God is too safe and predictable.
Predictable, yes. Safe? Since you cotton to fantasy more readily than truth, consider the following passage from C.S. Lewis' The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, keeping in mind that Aslan is meant to be a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Is Aslan quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion."

"That you will dearie, and no mistake," said Mrs. Beaver. "If there's anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they're either braver than most or just plain silly."

"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.

"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver; "don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? Of course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you."

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]What can I say? The fruit of what happened was that a soul was brought to christ instead of committing suicide.
Whatever you can say is limited only by you. However, what you did say is that the old woman simply delayed offing herself by at least the time covered in the story. There was no mention of salvation.

Nonetheless, eve ...[text shortened]... n to admonitions to be sober-minded, etc.--- such silliness is exposed all the more as off-base.[/b]

However, what you did say is that the old woman simply delayed offing herself by at least the time covered in the story. There was no mention of salvation. FREAKY

I think I have already mentioned it in the thread but I will repeat it fr you. The woman went on to become a Christian and cited the cartwheel event as pivotal in her life journey. She would not have become a Christian if she had killed herself. God brought her back from the brink by responding to her prayer. It's a beautiful story about a man stepping out in faith , a woman reaching out to God in desperation and ultimately someone brought to Christ. It's a shame you can't see what God is doing around you in this messy , broken bizarre world we live in. Come on brother open your eyes!!!!