27 Oct 19
@secondson saidMr. Dunce. I said that the relationship with Christ and God comes from obeying the keeping the commandments. I provided references which show this.
So what you're saying is that father and son isn't a relationship.
You're a troll for not recognizing that God created man to be in fellowship with Him.
You're a blind troll for not recognizing and acknowledging that the scriptures teach that man, in Christ, is in fellowship with God through Christ, and that the believer is made a member of God's family, which is all about relationships with both God and fellow believers.
You're unbelievably ignorant.
You and your church promote a doctrine about a personal relatiohship with Christ devoid of good works and righteousness, and instead it is about talking to Christ and professing faith. It is mouth worship. Your relationship with Christ is not in the bible. It is therefore of Satan. Your personal relationship is with Satan.
@rajk999 saidThat's what you keep saying, but that theological proposition is fundamentally flawed.
I said that the relationship with Christ and God comes from obeying the keeping the commandments.
The relationship with Christ and God "comes from" faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
The cross is the hitch pin and focal point of the whole Word of God, and is the place where the son of God redeemed us and paid our sins debt with His own blood.
That is where our relationship with God begins.
And you're lying if you deny it, and most definitely not born again.
28 Oct 19
@secondson saidWho, on this forum, is posting that Christians MUST obey Jesus' commandments? Is any Christian posting that?
And no one posting in this forum has ever said that a Christian shouldn't keep the law.
@secondson saidI have no interest in your church's theological propositions. My interest is in what Jesus said because it is the words of Jesus that have eternal life. The words of the church leads to damnation.
That's what you keep saying, but that theological proposition is fundamentally flawed.
The relationship with Christ and God "comes from" faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
The cross is the hitch pin and focal point of the whole Word of God, and is the place where the son of God redeemed us and paid our sins debt with His own blood.
That is where our ...[text shortened]... elationship with God begins.
And you're lying if you deny it, and most definitely not born again.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)
A relationship with Jesus and God comes from 2 things
:- Love for God that leads to OBEDIENCE to the commandments
- God and Christ making their abode with that person.
Your version of a personal relationship is church mumbo jumbo.
Its a simple matter. God likes DOING and God dwells with the DOERS and have a relationship with them. God hates talkers and mouth worshipers and His face is turned away from them. So continue with your mouthworshiping personal relationship.
28 Oct 19
@fmf saidThere's no argument made by any Christians posting in this forum that Christians should not obey Jesus' commandments.
Who, on this forum, is posting that Christians MUST obey Jesus' commandments? Is any Christian posting that?
Are you going to make the same mischaracterization as Rajk of what Christians posting in this forum are or are not saying?
The beef with Rajk, if you've been paying attention, is that of salvation and eternal life being a reward for obedience to the commandments of Christ and the doing of good works.
That is absolutely false. Eternal life is a free gift received through faith.
It's pathetic that after more than two decades identifying as a Christian, and assuming you read the Bible at least once, that you should pretend not to know the gospel of God's grace and ask such mindless questions.
One can only surmise that you are either seriously ignorant of the debate or are deliberately trying to cloud the issue.
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28 Oct 19
1 edit
Christian perfection in James is unfortunately a matter of some mixture.
Under God's sovereignty there is the Old Testament and the New Testament.
There is the old dispensation and the new dispensation.
There are also the two groups of people - the old people Israel and the new people - the church. And there is also "the old man" and "the new man" .
In James perfection for the Christian is sometimes a mixed matter. It is a perfection with mixture of the old dispensation with the new dispensation, a mixture with the old man and the new man, and a mixture with the people of Israel and the people of the church.
Some points in this book point to the new man. Other points point to the old man.
28 Oct 19
@rajk999 saidYour theology is inverted.
I have no interest in your church's theological propositions. My interest is in what Jesus said because it is the words of Jesus that have eternal life. The words of the church leads to damnation.
[i]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth ...[text shortened]... and His face is turned away from them. So continue with your mouthworshiping personal relationship.
Unless one is saved by grace through faith first, one has no chance in hell of keeping the commandments of Christ.
I've noticed that you have never addressed the matter that Jesus discussed with Nicodemus where Jesus said "you must be born again" that I have tried in vain to engage you with on several occasions.
John 3:3-16
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 ¶ Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 ¶ Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 ¶ Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 ¶ Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
"Ye must be born again" is not a suggestion. It's a commandment. And it's not something one does, but what one believes.
You should study the passage. You'll notice that nowhere in it does it say anything about keeping commandments or doing good works.
Instead it clearly says "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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28 Oct 19
Continuing about some amount of mixture of perfection in James.
Paul tells us to put off the old man and to put on the new man.
"Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two [b/] [peoples of Jews and Gentiles] [b] in Himself into ONE NEW MAN so making peace." (Eph. 2:15)
"That you out off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind
And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 4:22-24)
James is sometimes obscure and not clear whether he is talking about perfection in the old man or the perfection of putting the old man off and putting on the new man.
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28 Oct 19
@SecondSon
To Rajk999, the being "born of the Spirit" in John 3 is the physical resurrection of the body.
This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, I believe.
@rajk999 saidThe Lord is with us in this life it is the point, but you actually have to be in Christ and He in you to know it, and that is a relationship. The Spirit in you? Christ in you? If you belonged to Him that would be true, if not you don't belong to Him, and this is not our doing but God's, when God manifest Himself there is nothing better in this life.
Mr. Dunce. I said that the relationship with Christ and God comes from obeying the keeping the commandments. I provided references which show this.
You and your church promote a doctrine about a personal relatiohship with Christ devoid of good works and righteousness, and instead it is about talking to Christ and professing faith. It is mouth worship. Your relationship with Christ is not in the bible. It is therefore of Satan. Your personal relationship is with Satan.
John 14
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
28 Oct 19
@cloverman saidWho are Christ' brethren? It is all those who keep His commandments. The bunch you see on this site promote a doctrine that discourages people from keeping Christ's commandments.
@Rajk999
His commandment was to love the brethren.
28 Oct 19
@rajk999 saidNo one has said don’t keep Christ’s commandments except you in your baseless accusations. He is our Lord and Savior, if we are not obeying Him He is neither. The question for you is are you in the faith, is Christ in you, and you in Christ?
Who are Christ' brethren? It is all those who keep His commandments. The bunch you see on this site promote a doctrine that discourages people from keeping Christ's commandments.
@kellyjay saidI have heard you say NOTHING about keeping the commandments of Christ. Have you ever on this site told anyone that Jesus said
No one has said don’t keep Christ’s commandments except you in your baseless accusations. He is our Lord and Savior, if we are not obeying Him He is neither. The question for you is are you in the faith, is Christ in you, and you in Christ?
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:3-10 KJV)
How about telling people about the Good Samaritan or the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. ? Have you ? NO, you have never done that. Have you told anyone that Jesus said that it is those sheep who follow his commandments to feed the poor, clothe the naked, help those in need, will get eternal life? Never have you done that.
You are a liar. You are a mouth worshiper and you promote a doctrine that is contrary to Christ, hence it is Satanic.