Conciousness as a biological phenomenon or proo...

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It may be a limitation of science, however without proof that science is wrong how do we proceed? I agree that the tools availble for many measurements are not optimal, always we make new discoveries when new technologies come along. The thing is, however, that the logical processes behind science have not significantly changed since Newton or Galileo eed real, it has rules, and they are understandable. If there are no rules there is nothing.

Do you accept quantum mechanics as science? There’s plenty in there that is not currently provable, and may rely on a supernatural force i.e. consciousness.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]If there are no rules there is nothing.
Excellent post. And yet, you will agree, there are many things which, although, immeasurable, are nonetheless, real and/or actual?

My caution is the caution of history: when any thought gives way to fundamentalism, time betrays the romance.[/b]

Thanks Freaky,

I try to be a realist, although it sometimes becomes hard on these forums as I'm sure you're more than aware. I don;t think science is perfect - but it is bloody good! I can't see anything better, but i have an aweful less vision than some of those guys like Newton, Galileo, Da Vinci and Darwin amongst others. I'm not sure if something inperceptable is 'real'. You'd need to give me an example. And please, not a concept. Even these have some 'reality' since they realy on nerve impulses etc for their existance. In some ways, everything we know or don't know is real, simply based on that....

Caution is wise. It should always be applied, both to science and religion, but it so often is applied to the later, and so often to the former.

One thing you may have realised is that I dislike is the hypocracy displayed by many nowadays. People (especially in the past) have struggled, fought their way out of the mud, scrambled and struggled to make life better. Food production, medicines,even freedom ((although ou could questio whether we really have this!), almost everything we take for granted nowadays someone worked their lives for. And now? Now we stand and refuse those things. Now we say 'intensive farming is bad', but intensive farming gave us the lifestyle where we have the expendable energy and time to protest! So is the same with science. Science has given us so many great things, and we try to turn our back on it so many times. It's really not good!

I'm in a philosophical mood tonight. I hope you understand my points. They ARE addressed to you Freaky, but also to others. I hope we can all stop to think a little sometimes.....

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Do you accept quantum mechanics as science? There’s plenty in there that is not currently provable, and may rely on a supernatural force i.e. consciousness.

I suspect, CE, that you are referring to Dr Emoto's work? I've already expressed to you some doubt as to the veracity of that study. Those plates shown were almost certainly contaminated.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I suspect, CE, that you are referring to Dr Emoto's work? I've already expressed to you some doubt as to the veracity of that study. Those plates shown were almost certainly contaminated.

Actually I’m not. I’ll start a thread in a few days and we’ll discuss it there if you like. I underestimated the amount of research I was committing myself to. 🙄

It should be worth the wait though. From what I’ve read so far we’ll have plenty to debate.

Cheers.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Actually I’m not. I’ll start a thread in a few days and we’ll discuss it there if you like. I underestimated the amount of research I was committing myself to. 🙄

It should be worth the wait though. From what I’ve read so far we’ll have plenty to debate.

Cheers.

Good! Nice to see it's got you thinking - I hope it does the same to me! I'll look forward to it!

Cheers mate,

G'night!

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]The thing is, its not impossible for bacteria to evolve into humans. It might be improbable thats all.

Show me some proof that proves its possible for bacteria to evolve into humans, apart from some weired maths equation!!

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]The thing is, its not impossible for bacteria to evolve into humans. It might be improbable thats all.

Show me some proof that proves its possible for bacteria to evolve into humans, apart from some weired maths equation!!

I dont no why this posted twice!

Originally posted by Silver Slayer
Show me some proof that proves its possible for bacteria to evolve into humans, apart from some weired maths equation!!

Well i really dont have time to sit down for a few billion years to watch this phenomenon.
All i can say is that it is possible for bacteria to evolve into humans given that:
1. Bacteria mutate (and alot more quicker then humans)
2. Natural selection favours mutations which evolve
3. Evolution results in new species
4. These species evole (into what could over time become human).

This process is not impossible. The four points above are all true. Therefore we might assume humans evolved from bacteria (given that bacteria fossils are the earliest records of life).

Unless you have some obscure religious objection, you cannot say that it is impossible for bacteria to evolve into humans. Not even the ID people said that. They assrted it was just improbable.

Originally posted by scottishinnz

I'm not sure if something inperceptable is 'real'. You'd need to give me an example. And please, not a concept. Even these have some 'reality' since they realy on nerve impulses etc for their existance.
Here's a relatively (punny, huh?) easy one: pride, as in a job well done. While measurable as a chemical reaction once released, what trigger its chemical's release?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]I'm not sure if something inperceptable is 'real'. You'd need to give me an example. And please, not a concept. Even these have some 'reality' since they realy on nerve impulses etc for their existance.
Here's a relatively (punny, huh?) easy one: pride, as in a job well done. While measurable as a chemical reaction once released, what trigger its chemical's release?[/b]

Another chemical?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]I'm not sure if something inperceptable is 'real'. You'd need to give me an example. And please, not a concept. Even these have some 'reality' since they realy on nerve impulses etc for their existance.
Here's a relatively (punny, huh?) easy one: pride, as in a job well done. While measurable as a chemical reaction once released, what trigger its chemical's release?[/b]

Unfortunately freak you are assuming that the 'thought' happens independantly (and actually before) the associated biochemical reactions within the brain. I would say that the perception of a job well done comes from the brain recognising an 'end' situation which is close to the planned 'end situation' in an idealised world.

If we think of the brain as a(n amazingly fast supremely complex) computer with a situation it has to deal with. It has a start scenario, and an ideal end scenario, and all it has to do is get from one situation to the other. Let's say, for example, it has to get across a river. The start point is this river bank, and the ideal end point is being on the other river bank. This computer has at it's diposal 'experience', in that it knows about the costs (energy, expense, danger factor) and benefits (getting to the other side) of cars and ramps, rope and trees, bridges (both contruction of and locating), swimming etc etc etc. The computer takes its experience and does an analysis (thinks) of the best way across the river (i.e. least (real or potential) costs and most benefit) and it gets across the river. The computer compares this end point with the planned end point and sees a good synergy. It then wants to store this solution for future reference, and it wants it to be associated with 'good solution', so it triggers a hormonal cue for good.

I'd say that's an example of the brain working like a computer and getting a result which would lead it to triggering a feel good signal. In this case pride.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Unfortunately freak you are assuming that the 'thought' happens independantly (and actually before) the associated biochemical reactions within the brain. I would say that the perception of a job well done comes from the brain recognising an 'end' situation which is close to the planned 'end situation' in an idealised world.

If we think of the brain result which would lead it to triggering a feel good signal. In this case pride.

What "tells" it that it has to get across a river? You are hitting a brick wall here. Science functions within the parameters of causality -- there is always a cause. Unless you separate consciousness from the physical, the freedom of will that you probably consider yourself having is merely an illusion. If everything can be boiled down to a physical cause e.g. you see an apple; your stomach sends hormones of hunger; instinct of survival kicks in; eat apple. What physical process would drive the choice to do it or not? What initiates it? If there is no metaphysical consciousness there is no free will. If there is no free will, then our actions are merely reactionary impulses stemming from physical stimuli -- which we have no control over. Ergo, a serial murderer is merely suffering from ingesting too many Twinkies and these emotions that we are so proud of -- falling in love etc, etc, etc -- are pitiful delusions.

Originally posted by Halitose
Ergo, a serial murderer is merely suffering from ingesting too many Twinkies and these emotions that we are so proud of -- falling in love etc, etc, etc -- are pitiful delusions.

Emotion is an essential part of any healthy human being, but I fail to see why it should be a cause for pride (an emotion in itself).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Emotion is an essential part of any healthy human being, but I fail to see why it should be a cause for pride (an emotion in itself).

Is this going anywhere? Higher emotions are some of the characteristics that differentiate humans from lesser animals – a possible cause for pride.

Originally posted by Halitose
Is this going anywhere? Higher emotions are some of the characteristics that differentiate humans from lesser animals – a possible cause for pride.

Pride is a sin.