03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerThat's nice, I have no problem with faith schools. We've managed to talk past each other completely on that point.
Faith schools (in the West anyway) were created with the express intention of educating children of the faithful in the faith. So RE is an integral part of the mission of the faith schools.
As for Columbus, the most effective way for me to make my point is the Socratic one.
As for Columbus, clearly it isn't, since I have no patience with your method (given the gap in my knowledge), and have politely asked you to explain what you mean, rather than badger me with a stream of questions. Consider adapting your conversational style to your interlocutor or wait until someone else takes your Socratic bait...
03 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de NageFirst note: sorry for the delay, but please read the edited post as well. (I'm not holding anything against you btw -- I know it's not your fault)
That's nice, I have no problem with faith schools. We've managed to talk past each other completely on that point.
As for Columbus, clearly it isn't, since I have no patience with your method (given the gap in my knowledge), and have politely asked you to explain what you mean, rather than badger me with a stream of questions. Consider adapting your ...[text shortened]... versational style to your interlocutor or wait until someone else takes your Socratic bait...
My point about Columbus is quite simple -- it's quite amazing how many history textbooks (and not merely at primary level - also secondary school ones) will tell you that Columbus faced opposition to his West-bound trip to India because people thought he would fall off the "edge" of the earth.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerI do not actually know this history well. Do you have good sources?
Really? Do you want to re-check your history on that point (re: Latin Bibles)?
Isn't that true of most animals? Humans aside, I can think of only primates and dolphins for whom that wouldn't apply.
No, it is totally false, as anyone who has ever kept a pet should know.
Besides, wouldn't you consider thought itself a complex high-level pattern of biological instincts according to "science"?
If you did, which doesn't quite make sense to me, then it would include humans. The implication in my Religious education course was humans are unique and special because only they can think. If someone is that ignorant then I do not want to learn anything else from them.
(Also, I'm curious as to how a "group of churches" set the syllabus for an RC school. Could you elaborate more on this?)
The school operates within the government framework and thus follows the government set courses and syllabi (is that the right plural) and examinations.
I believe that the Religious education syllabus is set by "The Christian Council of Churches in Zambia"
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerI said that some time ago - don't get your point???
First note: sorry for the delay, but please read the edited post as well. (I'm not holding anything against you btw -- I know it's not your fault)
My point about Columbus is quite simple -- it's quite amazing how many history textbooks (and not merely at primary level - also secondary school ones) will tell you that Columbus faced opposition ...[text shortened]... West-bound trip to India because people thought he would fall off the "edge" of the earth.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerSee how easy that was. No need for the Socratic rigmarole! Yes, I know, untruths abound. Well, they should be rooted out of the syllabus, whether the school is secular or religious.
My point about Columbus is quite simple -- it's quite amazing how many history textbooks (and not merely at primary level - also secondary school ones) will tell you that Columbus faced opposition to his West-bound trip to India because people thought he would fall off the "edge" of the earth.
It's quite likely that some people did think he'd fall off the edge of the world, since I don't think the majority of uneducated people knew it was spherical. I know that it was shown to be spherical a very long time ago, by Hero of Alexandria was it? I forget. Anyway, there was a vast gap between the intelligentsia and the populace. Oddly enough the gap persists today in spite of mass education...
03 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadI do not actually know this history well. Do you have good sources?
I do not actually know this history well. Do you have good sources?
[b]Isn't that true of most animals? Humans aside, I can think of only primates and dolphins for whom that wouldn't apply.
No, it is totally false, as anyone who has ever kept a pet should know.
Besides, wouldn't you consider thought itself a complex high-level pattern of bio Religious education syllabus is set by "The Christian Council of Churches in Zambia"[/b]
Not really. I'd use Wikipedia for a start.
However, something about non-Latin Bibles being prohibited in Protestant England (considering that's where the KJV comes from) sounds fishy to me.
No, it is totally false, as anyone who has ever kept a pet should know.
I have kept pets. And none of my pets have been capable of [conceptual or abstract] thought. Were yours?
If you did, which doesn't quite make sense to me, then it would include humans.
Yes it would.
If someone is that ignorant then I do not want to learn anything else from them.
Funny you should say something like that, considering the point I'm making with the Columbus example.
The school operates within the government framework ... the Religious education syllabus is set by "The Christian Council of Churches in Zambia"
So we're talking about RE syllabus then and not the whole educational syllabus.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerI don't think anyone gets the point yet. I do remember a bit of that, thought the fact that he thought he could get to India, and his backers probably did too, implies that a significant number of people disagreed.
My point about Columbus is quite simple -- it's quite amazing how many history textbooks (and not merely at primary level - also secondary school ones) will tell you that Columbus faced opposition to his West-bound trip to India because people thought he would fall off the "edge" of the earth.
You still haven't given us a theory as to why there is anti-religious sentiment in schools.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerHow do you know that your pets were incapable of abstract thought?
[b]I do not actually know this history well. Do you have good sources?
Not really. I'd use Wikipedia for a start.
However, something about non-Latin Bibles being prohibited in Protestant England (considering that's where the KJV comes from) sounds fishy to me.
No, it is totally false, as anyone who has ever kept a pet should kno ...[text shortened]... a"
So we're talking about RE syllabus then and not the whole educational syllabus.[/b]
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerFor handy reference in this thread:
It's simply not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_columbus#Navigational_theories
Following Washington Irving's myth-filled 1828 biography of Columbus, it became common supposed knowledge that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans believed that the earth was flat.[4] In fact, few people at the time of Columbus’s voyage, and virtually no sailors or navigators, believed this. Most agreed that the earth was a sphere. Indeed, knowledge of the Earth's spherical nature was not limited to scientists: for instance, Dante's Divine Comedy is based on a spherical Earth. Columbus put forth arguments that were based on the circumference of the sphere. Most scholars accepted Ptolemy's claim that the terrestrial landmass (for Europeans of the time, comprising Eurasia and Africa) occupied 180 degrees of the terrestrial sphere, leaving 180 degrees of water.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageSure, there were a small minority of people who believed the Earth was flat -- but it wasn't a common view:
It's quite likely that some people did think he'd fall off the edge of the world, since I don't think the majority of uneducated people knew it was spherical. I know that it was shown to be spherical a very long time ago, by Hero of Alexandria was it? I forget. Anyway, there was a vast gap between the intelligentsia and the populace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Later_Middle_Ages
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerSo you've managed to establish that it's a common misconception that people in the Middle Ages all thought the world was flat. What now?
Sure, there were a small minority of people who believed the Earth was flat -- but it wasn't a common view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Later_Middle_Ages
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerYep. That's still taught along with the idea that he thought the world was round while everyone else thought it was flat.
First note: sorry for the delay, but please read the edited post as well. (I'm not holding anything against you btw -- I know it's not your fault)
My point about Columbus is quite simple -- it's quite amazing how many history textbooks (and not merely at primary level - also secondary school ones) will tell you that Columbus faced opposition ...[text shortened]... West-bound trip to India because people thought he would fall off the "edge" of the earth.
In fact, however, Columbus was engaged in debate with others regarding the circumference of the earth. He argued for a smaller size than believed by most geographers in his day. It turns out that he was wrong, while his adversaries were close to the mark. Both groups traced their ideas back to the ancient Greeks, who were the first to leave their calculations in print.
Nevertheless, Colon achieved greatness because his voyage promoted the potential riches in the lands the Vikings and Chinese had previously visited. His voyages launched the era of European colonization of the Western Hemisphere, but the Admiral of the Ocean Sea died believing he had reached the edge of Asia.
The truth is too complicated and lacks the glamour of the myth.