03 Nov 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadI wasn't speaking specifically about schools. In fact, when I started off the education sub-thread, I was thinking primarily of higher education.
You still haven't given us a theory as to why there is anti-religious sentiment in schools.
My theory is that is that it has to do with the rise of the anti-establishment mentality in the immediate post-WWII generation in the West. Marxism provided a ready framework for challenging the institutions of their fathers; Western paranoia about communism also helped fuel the rebellion. In time, this generation would dominate higher education institutions (c. 1970s) and, indirectly (because school education depends on the theories of higher education -- in my country, most upper primary and secondary school textbooks are written by university professors) school education as well.
For slightly different reasons, Marxism also drove thought in developing/under-developed nations where ideas like class struggle had a more ready audience. Obviously this interacted with parallel streams of thought in the West and here too educational institutions were eventually dominated by anti-establishment figures (who were particularly vituperative towards religion).
I know it's fallacious to try to paint history with broad strokes; but that's what I think generally happened.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NagePerhaps there's a connection in the tendency of Christian civilization to create myths for its secular heros as much as for its religious ones?
So you've managed to establish that it's a common misconception that people in the Middle Ages all thought the world was flat. What now?
03 Nov 06
3 edits
Originally posted by lucifershammerOK, I understand what you're saying. I don't know enough about the history of the English education system to comment. In general, you'll find there was an upwelling of sympathy for Marxism after World War 1, not 2. I can also say that your analysis doesn't apply to South Africa.
I wasn't speaking specifically about schools. In fact, when I started off the education sub-thread, I was thinking primarily of higher education[....]I know it's fallacious to try to paint history with broad strokes; but that's what I think generally happened.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerAnd similar misconceptions in history often heavily influenced by the writers view points has lead me to have a healthy amount of criticism for all historical accounts (including the bible)
Sure, there were a small minority of people who believed the Earth was flat -- but it wasn't a common view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Later_Middle_Ages
03 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere are people here who would dispute that the whole Bible (particularly the OT) is meant to be read as a historical account.
And similar misconceptions in history often heavily influenced by the writers view points has lead me to have a healthy amount of criticism for all historical accounts (including the bible)
EDIT: Apologies.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAt my university, the department with the most openly anti-religious professors was not one of the science, maths or engineering departments -- but the humanities department.
Most lecturers I know are not religious, true. Why, I'm not sure. However, to link this with what I was trying to say (so inadequately) earlier--what's the connection with the fact that fewer people are attending church? Or, in the UK, why is religion just as irrelevant to yob culture as it is to the "intellectual elite"?
(Sorry for going off-topic!)
In any case, once a view becomes widespread within the "intelligentsia", it's usually only a matter of time before it percolates down to the middle class. In other words, it becomes fashionable -- especially for those who are upwardly-mobile or aspire to be so.
With the UK in particular, I think the shock of going from Empire to minor Western power, compounded with a general economic decline, may also have something to do with it.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerYes, the humanities can be awfully pretentious.
In any case, once a view becomes widespread within the "intelligentsia", it's usually only a matter of time before it percolates down to the middle class. In other words, it becomes fashionable -- especially for those who are upwardly-mobile or aspire to be so.
Freud had a big impact. Darwin, Huxley, Einstein, Marx--watered-down, distorted versions of their theories were filtered through the media. The first world war also helped convince people that the old institutions were bollocks.
What about the majority of people--below the middle classes? Kids nowadays are anti-education as well as anti-religion.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by sugiezdNo. Although I may find that my brother's religious beliefs defy logic and reason, and I am appalled at the ways his church attacks (and undermines in the minds of the children) good science and history education, the religion itself is not ridiculous. Even the cultivated illiteracy that is necessary for Jehovah's Witnesses (at least my brother is not one of those) is not ridiculous, as bad as it is.
Thank you - exactly the point that I am trying to make.
Now, given that several of these religions are at odds with each other (and within themselves) doesn't that make regigion ridiculous?
Religion meets human social and emotional needs, and serves a legimitate secular purpose. I am grateful for the education and friendships that served to liberate me from my early training, but I do not regret or find ridiculous all of the church teaching that occupied so much of my first 30 years. That I now find more spirituality smoking my pipe under the tree in the back yard or casting a nymph in front of a hungry trout reflects my developing views, but we're not all on the same path.
Most folks need to believe in something, and religions are created to meet these needs. In Saudi Arabia, Islam meets important perceived needs that are met by the Baptists in parts of Georgia (the American Georgia).
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI think the First World War left Europeans (in particular) shell-shocked (pun unintended - apologies) but I don't think they were ready for open rebellion yet. I think it was the Second World War that gave them the conviction that the entire past (more or less) had to be thrown out for a "better" future.
Yes, the humanities can be awfully pretentious.
Freud had a big impact. Darwin, Huxley, Einstein, Marx--watered-down, distorted versions of their theories were filtered through the media. The first world war also helped convince people that the old institutions were bollocks.
What about the majority of people--below the middle classes? Kids nowadays are anti-education as well as anti-religion.
I'm not sure the kids today are as anti-religion as their parents were. Quite a few of them, from my limited observations, seem to be interested in spirituality and religion (though perhaps not to the extent that they readily accept authority). I think the more general problem they have is with authority figures (be it schools, police or religious institutions). The breakdown of the family here in the UK seems to be a major driving force.