Debate!!

Originally posted by menace71
Actually it's a cool feeling to own something! LOL 🙂 To earn it! Not just have it handed to you.



Manny

I dont like that game anymore

Originally posted by menace71
Actually it's a cool feeling to own something! LOL 🙂 To earn it! Not just have it handed to you.



Manny

It's cool to work and to contribute, but the desire to 'own' things is what keeps you in your fallen state. It is what pushes the realization of the kingdom further and further away.

Originally posted by menace71
Actually it's a cool feeling to own something! LOL 🙂 To earn it! Not just have it handed to you.



Manny

But when it comes to private property, they tax the poo out of ya. The question then begs, is it really mine or am I just reniting it from the state? I think it is the later. Therefore, it is the state that owns all the land, not I. It is, therefore, the state that is preveinting Rwingetts kingdom from coming true. After all, do you think they would outlaw private property and pass up all that revenue?

Originally posted by rwingett
Government? I never said anything about government. Government is a necessary institution as long as man continues to exist in his fallen state. But when the kingdom is inaugurated the (fallen) state shall wither away.

Instead of working your way out of poverty, why don't you quit propagating a system that breeds poverty? Not only will you not have to worry about your children eating, but you won't have to worry about anyone's children eating.

But government is calling the shots, are they not?

In addition, what government in human history has ushered in your fabled kingdom?

Originally posted by whodey
But your view of Chrsit is nothing more than a second rate Carl Marx. Would you say that Carl Marx is a better example than Christ for ushering in "the kingdom"?

Marx has nothing to do with Jesus. Marx will never usher in the kingdom.

Originally posted by whodey
But government is calling the shots, are they not?

In addition, what government in human history has ushered in your fabled kingdom?

Because mankind exists in a fallen state, with private property, the profit motive, and usury, it is necessary to organize governments among themselves to enforce those property relations and protect those ill gotten gains. No government will ever usher in the kingdom. The kingdom will only be inaugurated when mankind renounces private property, the profit motive, and usury, and made 'government' unnecessary. The kingdom will come when mankind has abandoned the vices that makes government a practical necessity.

Originally posted by rwingett
Because mankind exists in a fallen state, with private property, the profit motive, and usury, it is necessary to organize governments among themselves to enforce those property relations and protect those ill gotten gains. No government will ever usher in the kingdom. The kingdom will only be inaugurated when mankind renounces private property, the profit om will come when mankind has abandoned the vices that makes government a practical necessity.

In other words, as soon as mankind abandons his sinful nature, the kingdom will be ushered in? I agree mankinds nature is sinful, however, I recognize that this nature is not entirely driven by owning property, nor is this sinful nature able to be detroyed. At best this nature can be subdued. The Bible refers to it as the spirit battling the flesh. The flesh mind the things of this world as where the spirit minds the things that are eternal. For example, the flesh knows when it is hungry, or horny, or tired. The flesh is only interested in self preservation, or those things that prolong its existence or pleasure. Conversely, the spirit minds the things that are eternal. This involves the fruits of the spirit mentioned in Galations such as love, joy, peace, patience, long suffering etc. If you notice, many of these "fruits" are directly nonbeneficial. In other words, there is no instant self gratification, rather, it is just the opposite. In fact, you may never reap gratification from them in this life but these things have eternal impacts on those around us. In addtion, the Bible says that Christ can give you a new spirit or a rebirth that can make this all possible.

Originally posted by rwingett
Marx has nothing to do with Jesus. Marx will never usher in the kingdom.

So Marx is a heretic?

I guess Marx advocates fighting for property and power, therefore, he is no better than those who are "rich" in that regard.

Originally posted by whodey
In other words, as soon as mankind abandons his sinful nature, the kingdom will be ushered in? I agree mankinds nature is sinful, however, I recognize that this nature is not entirely driven by owning property, nor is this sinful nature able to be detroyed. At best this nature can be subdued. The Bible refers to it as the spirit battling the flesh. The fl ...[text shortened]... Bible says that Christ can give you a new spirit or a rebirth that can make this all possible.

Private property was mankind's original sin. All other sins derive from it. Once he began to fence off the common bounty of the earth and say, "this is mine and mine alone", then he existed in a fallen state, alienated from his true human nature. He was given over to greed, avarice, and usurpation, and the host of other sins followed in their wake. He built governments to enforce his fraudulent property claims and codify his immorality.

Jesus (the only one wholly in tune with his humanity) showed the way out of that fallen cycle of greed and avarice. Give up your claim to dominion over this or that parcel of the earth's common bounty and return it to the whole. By so doing, you, yourself, will be made whole and you will no longer be alienated from your true human nature. You will be made right with 'god.' On that day, you will look around you and see that the kingdom is spread out before you. It was always there, really, but you could not see it.

Originally posted by whodey
So Marx is a heretic?

I guess Marx advocates fighting for property and power, therefore, he is no better than those who are "rich" in that regard.

Marx is an outdated relic who is best forgotten. Marxism was a dead end in the evolution of socialism.

Originally posted by rwingett
[b]Private property was mankind's original sin. All other sins derive from it. Once he began to fence off the common bounty of the earth and say, "this is mine and mine alone", then he existed in a fallen state, alienated from his true human nature.

Private property is not the problem just like guns are not a problem. It is how these things are handled that is the problem. The way I see it, mankind chose to become his own god, thus serving himself and seeking to be served rather than the Almighty. All that then comes before him is used as a tool for his own device....unless he chooses to serve God or another human being. As the scriptures say, "All we like sheep have gone astray and followed after his own private prop....er ...um....his own way."

By the way, what version of the Bible are you using? 😲

Originally posted by rwingett
Marx is an outdated relic who is best forgotten. Marxism was a dead end in the evolution of socialism.

Why is he a relic? It seems to me he has a vast array of followers today.

Originally posted by whodey
Private property is not the problem just like guns are not a problem. It is how these things are handled that is the problem. The way I see it, mankind chose to become his own god, thus serving himself and seeking to be served rather than the Almighty. All that then comes before him is used as a tool for his own device....unless he chooses to serve God or ...[text shortened]... prop....er ...um....his own way."

By the way, what version of the Bible are you using? 😲

I have a revised standard version that I refer to when I need it. But I consider the bible to be more of a corruption of Jesus' message than an accurate record of it. I don't think Jesus ever said half the things that are attributed to him in the bible. Much of it was simply made up during the oral period between Jesus' death and when the various books of the bible were eventually written. The more fantastical elements of Christian mythology certainly were. Research done by the Jesus Seminar and by various other biblical scholars can give us a glimpse of what his original message probably looked like, but there's no way to know for sure.

Originally posted by whodey
Why is he a relic? It seems to me he has a vast array of followers today.

Various people have claimed that Stalin corrupted Leninism, or that Lenin corrupted Marx, but I say that it was Marx who corrupted socialism. Marx represented the authoritarian wing of the socialist movement during the 19th century, in contrast to Bakunin's anarchist wing. Marx took socialism down a path that has proven to be a disastrous dead end. Socialism is now beginning to recover from Marx's influence, but it will probably take decades before it does so completely. The sooner he is forgotten, the better.

Originally posted by whodey
Private property is not the problem just like guns are not a problem. It is how these things are handled that is the problem. The way I see it, mankind chose to become his own god, thus serving himself and seeking to be served rather than the Almighty. All that then comes before him is used as a tool for his own device....unless he chooses to serve God or ...[text shortened]... prop....er ...um....his own way."

By the way, what version of the Bible are you using? 😲

The problem with most Christians is that they want to believe that their capitalist, consumerist lifestyle is OK. They want to believe that only levels of greed and avarice greater than their own are what bars someone from the kingdom. Nobody wants to change their own lifestyle to make themselves worthy of the kingdom. No, they want to believe that nothing is required from them at all except to sit on their rear end and proclaim their pious belief while they wait and wait for Jesus to deliver the kingdom, all gift wrapped, into their sorry laps. Why do you think that 2,000 years later, you're still waiting? Why do I strongly suspect that in another 2,000 years you'd still be waiting? You're waiting on Jesus to deliver the kingdom, but I say that he is waiting on you to quit lying around, quoting scripture, and build it yourself. If you do that then his spirit will enter that kingdom and give it his blessing. Build it, whodey, and he will come.