19 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettthis is a very noble sentiment Rwingett dude, however we must realise that there are certain limitations which humans can accomplish. Christ when he was on earth, gave a small portent of what his Kingdom will accomplish, many of which are impossible for humans to do. What is true though, that Christianity at its inception was as truly dynamic force, now for many it is simply a ritualistic type of godly devotion, which has little or no power.
The problem with most Christians is that they want to believe that their capitalist, consumerist lifestyle is OK. They want to believe that only levels of greed and avarice greater than their own are what bars someone from the kingdom. Nobody wants to change their own lifestyle to make themselves worthy of the kingdom. No, they want to believe that nothing spirit will enter that kingdom and give it his blessing. Build it, whodey, and he will come.
Disclaimer: All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. All references may or may not be from a third party, the author claims no responsibility for the content, nor are any to be taken as representative of his own work!
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGiven the proper motivation there is no limit to what mankind can accomplish. It has been amply demonstrated, though, that your antiquated and reactionary view of Jesus is not that motivator. If Jesus is going to save us, it won't be through any farcical blood sacrifice. It'll be because he has inspired us to rise up and save ourselves.
this is a very noble sentiment Rwingett dude, however we must realise that there are certain limitations which humans can accomplish. Christ when he was on earth, gave a small portent of what his Kingdom will accomplish, many of which are impossible for humans to do. What is true though, that Christianity at its inception was as truly dynamic force ...[text shortened]... ms no responsibility for the content, nor are any to be taken as representative of his own work!
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by rwingettHow are you going to save yourself?
Given the proper motivation there is no limit to what mankind can accomplish. It has been amply demonstrated, though, that your antiquated and reactionary view of Jesus is not that motivator. If Jesus is going to save us, it won't be through any farcical blood sacrifice. It'll be because he has inspired us to rise up and save ourselves.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by rwingettYou know I actually feel and agree on a certain level with what your saying but I don't trust mankind. Also unfortunately the system we have is what we have. So should I just stop working? I think some poverty is from human ignorance. Sure there is corporate greed and abuse but no one forces anyone to work at Walmart. Sure material wealth will not make anyone happy truly no argument there.
Given the proper motivation there is no limit to what mankind can accomplish. It has been amply demonstrated, though, that your antiquated and reactionary view of Jesus is not that motivator. If Jesus is going to save us, it won't be through any farcical blood sacrifice. It'll be because he has inspired us to rise up and save ourselves.
Manny
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by josephwBy showing people that they have the ability to save themselves. Then together we will save each other. Salvation is not something that is parceled out individually. It is a social phenomenon. When we collectively build the kingdom then together we will have actuated our own salvation. If Jesus is to save us it will be by providing the necessary motivation for that self-transformation.
How are you going to save yourself?
19 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettHere is an interesting verse which could support your view :
By showing people that they have the ability to save themselves. Then together we will save each other. Salvation is not something that is parceled out individually. It is a social phenomenon. When we collectively build the kingdom then together we will have actuated our own salvation. If Jesus is to save us it will be by providing the necessary motivation for that self-transformation.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
One possible interpretation of this passage is that you wont see a kindgom of God appearing suddenly. What is more likely is that the kindgom will gradually transform the earth over the 1000 year period, and it is within us to put away the selfish greed that plagues mankind.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by rwingettOkay, but you still haven't answered the question exactly.
By showing people that they have the ability to save themselves. Then together we will save each other. Salvation is not something that is parceled out individually. It is a social phenomenon. When we collectively build the kingdom then together we will have actuated our own salvation. If Jesus is to save us it will be by providing the necessary motivation for that self-transformation.
What are we to be saved from, and how did we get into that position? In other words, what is the problem we are to be saved from, and how and why did we get this way? One can't treat a condition until and unless that condition has been diagnosed, and then the correct remedy can be administered.
You need to be more specific.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999You spiritualized something literal here.
Here is an interesting verse which could support your view :
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
One possib ...[text shortened]... er the 1000 year period, and it is within us to put away the selfish greed that plagues mankind.
#1 Jesus didn't exactly answer the question. The Pharisees asked Jesus WHEN the Kingdom of God would come.
#2 Suggesting that the Kingdom will be a gradual transformation defies logic. When Jesus returns He will set up the Kingdom immediately, and there will be no resistance.
When an invading army comes into a nation it destroys the opposing forces NOW, bringing into submission the inhabitants of that nation under new administration.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by josephwI have answered this elsewhere. It goes something like this:
Okay, but you still haven't answered the question exactly.
What are we to be saved from, and how did we get into that position? In other words, what is the problem we are to be saved from, and how and why did we get this way? One can't treat a condition until and unless that condition has been diagnosed, and then the correct remedy can be administered.
You need to be more specific.
In the beginning mankind was wholly in touch with his true humanity. He was right with "god". Private property was mankind's original sin. He fenced off various portions of the earth's common bounty and said, "this is mine and mine alone." At that point he became estranged from his true human nature and entered into a fallen state where he was separated from "god." All the sins of the world followed in the wake of that original one. No longer at peace with himself, mankind built governments to enforce his fraudulent property claims and protect his ill gotten gains.
Jesus, the only one fully in touch with his true humanity, showed how mankind could re-connect with his own lost humanity, how he could rise up above his sorry state of affairs, build the kingdom and be right with "god" again. It's nothing that Jesus physically does that will bring salvation. It is the motivation he provides for people to change themselves that will bring salvation.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by josephwJesus is dead. He isn't coming back. At least not physically. But if people take his message to heart and are inspired by him to build the kingdom (gradually), then he will have come a second time "in spirit."
You spiritualized something literal here.
#1 Jesus didn't exactly answer the question. The Pharisees asked Jesus WHEN the Kingdom of God would come.
#2 Suggesting that the Kingdom will be a gradual transformation defies logic. When Jesus returns He will set up the Kingdom immediately, and there will be no resistance.
When an invading army comes into ...[text shortened]... g forces NOW, bringing into submission the inhabitants of that nation under new administration.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by menace71Ideally you would drop out of society and build your own autonomous communities. Like the Hutterite communities of western US and Canada. Even though they, too, have their own flaws, that is the general template for the building of the kingdom (in my opinion).
You know I actually feel and agree on a certain level with what your saying but I don't trust mankind. Also unfortunately the system we have is what we have. So should I just stop working? I think some poverty is from human ignorance. Sure there is corporate greed and abuse but no one forces anyone to work at Walmart. Sure material wealth will not make anyone happy truly no argument there.
Manny
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by josephwClearly you dont understand the purpose of the 1000 period otherwise you would not have said there will be no resistance
You spiritualized something literal here.
#1 Jesus didn't exactly answer the question. The Pharisees asked Jesus WHEN the Kingdom of God would come.
#2 Suggesting that the Kingdom will be a gradual transformation defies logic. When Jesus returns He will set up the Kingdom immediately, and there will be no resistance.
When an invading army comes into ...[text shortened]... g forces NOW, bringing into submission the inhabitants of that nation under new administration.
19 Dec 09
Originally posted by rwingettActs 2:43-47
Jesus is dead. He isn't coming back. At least not physically. But if people take his message to heart and are inspired by him to build the kingdom (gradually), then he will have come a second time "in spirit."
And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
20 Dec 09
Originally posted by rwingettI don't for a second believe that your conclusions were reached after a careful and objective study of the New Testament. Rather, your assumption that Christ did not say the things attributed to him is based entirely on a naturalistic bias. You, like those in the Jesus Seminar, are forced by your preconceived notions to invent ways of reinterpreting or explaining away the obviously supernatural statements made by Jesus and his disciples. Of course, you have every right to believe as you do, but please stop trying to convince me that your conclusions were reached in an objective fashion or that the evidence even remotely supports your case.
I am interested in what Jesus said, not what the bible says. And I don't believe Jesus said half of the things that are attributed to him in the bible. I think most of what came to be Christian theology was simply invented after his death. Especially the more fantastical elements of Christian mythology, like the alleged divinity, virgin birth and resurrecti ...[text shortened]... esus actually said. It has very little in common with the Pauline Christianity you're used to.