Deceiver of the whole world

@bigdoggproblem said
Well, now there's a sweeping statement. Mind giving examples?

Most religions personify evil (making it the work of the devil or Rahu etc).

It is this 'sinister force at work among us' that I refuse to accommodate into my understanding of 'evil' as we encounter it in our lives. If a human does something 'bad' or 'evil' then they have done that of their own accord, due to a deficiency of 'goodness' inside of them. 'Evil' is not something outside of them, something tangible and malevolently external.

A room goes dark because it lacks light. It is not the case that a malevolent demon has intentionally removed that light from the room.

@divegeester said

Hell may of may not exist, but whatever it’s state of existence has nothing to do with darkness being the absence of light and the absence of God from hell is not supported in scripture either way.

'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.' (Thessalonians 9).

Doesn't the above scripture support the argument that hell is a place where God is absent?

@divegeester said
This does not follow. Your initial premise is not supported in scripture anyway, and you second premise is another non-sequitur.

I believe my initial premise, that 'Heaven (in a Christian context) is a state of being in the presence of God, 'is' supported by scripture. Take for example:

“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (Rev 21:3)


So we have Rev 21:3 - Heaven is a place in the presence of God

And Thessalonians 9 - Hell is a place in the absence of God.

@divegeester said
I think you are walking though a field of non-sequiturs old chap.

I like to take an experimental idea and then defend it to the hilt.

You may have noticed.

😀

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Most religions personify evil (making it the work of the devil or Rahu etc).

It is this 'sinister force at work among us' that I refuse to accommodate into my understanding of 'evil' as we encounter it in our lives. If a human does something 'bad' or 'evil' then they have done that of their own accord, due to a deficiency of 'goodness' inside of them. 'Evil' is n ...[text shortened]... ight. It is not the case that a malevolent demon has intentionally removed that light from the room.

Can you give an example where evil is not done by someone or to someone? When speaking about evil, it is what is done or not done, and why, which makes all doers of it completely guilty of it and places them/us in such a horrible place before a Holy God.

@kellyjay said
Can you give an example where evil is not done by someone or to someone?

Do you deliberately misconstrue the words that people post?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.' (Thessalonians 9).

Doesn't the above scripture support the argument that hell is a place where God is absent?

No

Scriptually speaking there are resurrections open to Christians so what Paul is saying is that they will perish; end of, no resurrection.

The teaching of Hell is not scriptual. It originated with the Catholic church using religion as a control mechanism (do as i say or we can damn you to hell etc). There are three words that are often translated as "Hell", as no such word actually exists in the original text. hose words are Gehenna; Sheol; and Hades.

Gehenna was a fiery region outside the walls of Jerusalem that served as a rubbish tip, and was kept fired using brimstone (sulphur) where carcasess would be dumped along with other rubbish. Once you understand that bit you can get your head around where this whole eternal torment stuff is derived from.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I believe my initial premise, that 'Heaven (in a Christian context) is a state of being in the presence of God, 'is' supported by scripture. Take for example:

“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (Rev 21:3)


So we have Rev 21:3 - Heaven is a place in the presence of God

And Thessalonians 9 - Hell is a place in the absence of God.

Revelation 21:3 doesn't mention heaven. It is in fact the state of play after the great tribulation, which is the main feature of the book of Revelation.

Interesting idea though; it's a bit more thought provoking when somebody kicks thiss kind of stuff around.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I like to take an experimental idea and then defend it to the hilt.

You may have noticed.

😀

I noticed.

You have taken what the Bible says at its word, and framed your argument accordingly. That's a good idea. At the very least that "experimental idea" allows one to view the argument from more than one perspective.

I would like to take that a step further though. If one could consider all the voices, all the evidence for or against all perspectives, then, and only then, would one have the capacity to arrive at the truth. Truth being the goal with respect to coherent, logical and rational thought.

Otherwise why bother thinking at all if there is no truth to be known, and/or why bother considering alternative views and perspectives if ordered thought wasn't desired?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I believe my initial premise, that 'Heaven (in a Christian context) is a state of being in the presence of God, 'is' supported by scripture. Take for example:

“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (Rev 21:3)


So we have Rev 21:3 - Heaven is a place in the presence of God

And Thessalonians 9 - Hell is a place in the absence of God.

Thessalonians 9?

@fmf said
Are you sure?

Doesn't "He" require you to fear him? Doesn't he require you to worship him? Doesn't he require you to believe he sacrificed "his son" for you? Doesn't he require good works from you to prove that your faith is not "dead"? Doesn't he require you to obey him? Doesn't he require you to desist from "sin"? Doesn't he require you to "act justly and to love mercy and ...[text shortened]... it ~ has been, after all, the root cause of you making a prideful fool of yourself here many a time.

Required?

I wonder if you can invert your thinking so that you can properly understand the meaning of scripture.

You're using the wrong term, therefore the concepts relative to the worship of God are disarranged in your mind.

More correctly you should think of those things relative to man's relationship to God with the term 'command'.

God commands worship, love, obedience, faith and belief in Him and His Word.

Because you love your children you command them not to play in the street. The comparison is poor because we are human parents of human children. Hopefully you get my point.

Because of your present mindset you have a misconstrued perception of what it means to fear God.

The Bible teaches two perspectives with regards to the fear of God.

Keeping in mind just who God is: one type of fear is a terror. If God exists, and one discovers too late that He does, that one will be in terror of God when called to account.

But there is a "clean" fear of God. Psalm 19:9 says, "The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever:.." The fear of God (for the believer) is a clean fear.

I fear God, not because I'm in terror of Him, but because of who He is, and because of my relationship with Him. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 1:7

Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
(Italics mine)

@kellyjay said
Can you give an example where evil is not done by someone or to someone? When speaking about evil, it is what is done or not done, and why, which makes all doers of it completely guilty of it and places them/us in such a horrible place before a Holy God.

That doesn't really relate to what I wrote.

@kellyjay said
Thessalonians 9?

Yes. Scroll up to see the passage. (2nd post).

@medullah said
Revelation 21:3 doesn't mention heaven. It is in fact the state of play after the great tribulation, which is the main feature of the book of Revelation.

Interesting idea though; it's a bit more thought provoking when somebody kicks thiss kind of stuff around.

Well, if we back up a little:

'Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.'


Here, in this New Jerusalem (which most commentators agree is an eternal state) we are presented with something totally unique: a sinless, pure, community of righteousness, a holy city,...a heaven on Earth where God Himself will reside with His people. No?

@secondson said

I would like to take that a step further though. If one could consider all the voices, all the evidence for or against all perspectives, then, and only then, would one have the capacity to arrive at the truth. Truth being the goal with respect to coherent, logical and rational thought.

Otherwise why bother thinking at all if there is no truth to be known, and/or why bother considering alternative views and perspectives if ordered thought wasn't desired?

Perhaps that will be the outcome of this discussion.