12 Dec 19
@secondson said"The infinite and eternal". "The infinite and eternal". "The infinite and eternal". Gosh. If you're desperate to say something theological or religiously doctrinal, just come out and say it. If you do, it belongs on this thread.
What gives us the capacity to be consciously aware of the infinite and eternal?If consciousness ceases to exist at the death of the body, then being conscious of eternity is a trick of the mind. It's only the imagination.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidNo. Dogs and cats are conscious. But are they self-aware? Do they abstract? I see no evidence of self-awareness or abstraction in dogs and cats. But there is an obvious difference between a sleeping dog and one that knows it's time for walkies when it sees you putting on your coat and getting the leash. It gets excited and wags its tail; it is aware that something it likes is about to happen. That's an example of consciousness.
It's a capacity for self-awareness and abstraction that our brain's functions equip us with. Can we agree to at least that?
12 Dec 19
@moonbus saidI have been talking about human consciousness and that's why I haven't mentioned animals once on this thread. I know next to nothing about animal consciousness but I don't think that detracts much from my ability to cogitate the nature of human consciousness.
No. Dogs and cats are conscious. But are they self-aware? Do they abstract? I see no evidence of self-awareness or abstraction in dogs and cats. But there is an obvious difference between a sleeping dog and one that knows it's time for walkies when it sees you putting on your coat and getting the leash. It gets excited and wags its tail; it is aware that something it likes is about to happen. That's an example of consciousness.
12 Dec 19
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@FMF
Consciousness is not what distinguishes us from animals, therefore self-awareness and abstraction are not essential to consciousness. Indeed, there are humans operating at a very low level of self-awareness with almost no capacity for abstraction (e.g., people with dementia, Downs Syndrome, and other types of mental impairment) who are nonetheless conscious.
12 Dec 19
@moonbus saidYes, the consciousness of many humans is limited, sometimes severely so. Indeed, there are some unconscious humans or those in a coma, and yet they are human beings regardless.
@FMF
Consciousness is not what distinguishes us from animals, therefore self-awareness and abstraction are not essential to consciousness. Indeed, there are humans operating at a very low level of self-awareness with almost no capacity for abstraction (e.g., people with dementia, Downs Syndrome, and other types of mental impairment) who are nonetheless conscious.
The nature of human consciousness - and what it enables us to do - absolutely does differentiate us from animals. There is no error in defining what consciousness makes a living being capable of under normal conditions. If some individuals have "a very low level" of consciousness, so be it.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidI shall try nevertheless.
If we were looking for a definition of consciousness that applied to BOTH animals and humans, I don't think I would be able to come up with one.
The ability to receive information through the five senses and interpret it, react to it, make decisions about it, or act upon it.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidBut what I was suggesting was that we are able to consciously imagine that our consciousness would continue to exist after our bodies die, hence the notion of the consciousness equipped to envision the continuation of the self in an eternal state.
A pretty basic perspective that consciousness gives most people is the idea that things go on without us after we cease to exist. I don't think being conscious of things going on without us after we die, perhaps even for eternity, is "a trick of the mind".
Obviously we can consciously see that life on earth will continue after the body dies, but only while we are conscious now. That's not what I meant by the "trick of the mind". What I meant was that if the consciousness gives us a sense of the eternal, and the eternal isn't a reality for the consciousness, then we are being tricked by our imagination, or something like that.
12 Dec 19
@secondson saidIf you have some need to believe that your conciousness is eternal, that's OK. So what though? I think it's just a perspective you happen to have; I don't think it helps much to define consciousness. It's just another example of the kind of abstraction that human consciousness enables us to contemplate.
What I meant was that if the consciousness gives us a sense of the eternal, and the eternal isn't a reality for the consciousness, then we are being tricked by our imagination, or something like that.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidI'm using the terms infinite and eternal as a concept in contrast to the finite and temporal. Not as religious ideas.
"The infinite and eternal". "The infinite and eternal". "The infinite and eternal". Gosh. If you're desperate to say something theological or religiously doctrinal, just come out and say it. If you do, it belongs on this thread.
Of course I can't image an eternal state without realizing that if I came into existence from nothingness the continuation of consciousness wouldn't be possible without an outside agent causing it to be so. It would be beyond my power.
But that's another topic.
Here, you are asserting that the consciousness is an amalgam of the physical attributes of our senses as they coalesce in the brain, that apart from biological function the consciousness has no meaning.
I disagree with that at a fundamental level because I believe our makeup is greater than the mere sum of our physiology.
Our consciousnesses gives us an awareness of something
more than that. If that wasn't true we wouldn't even think about forever.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidThere would be no comparison. Animals act on instinct, whereas humans have a consciousness that bears on behavior.
If we were looking for a definition of consciousness that applied to BOTH animals and humans, I don't think I would be able to come up with one.
12 Dec 19
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@secondson saidMore or less, yes. I am asserting that consciousness is an attribute and capacity that is made possible by our brains being hooked up to our senses; furthermore, I am asserting that our consciousness ceases when our biological functions cease. That is not to say that "consciousness has no meaning". It simply means that my consciousness will one day cease.
Here, you are asserting that the consciousness is an amalgam of the physical attributes of our senses as they coalesce in the brain, that apart from biological function the consciousness has no meaning.
12 Dec 19
@secondson saidIf you want to say something "at a fundamental level" and theological or religiously doctrinal about consciousness, just go ahead and say it.
I disagree with that at a fundamental level because I believe our makeup is greater than the mere sum of our physiology.
12 Dec 19
@fmf saidLook, I understand if you feel the need to introduce into the discussion that I believe in things like eternity, and though I do I'm sincerely trying to understand what consciousness is, and I don't think you know what it is any better than I.
If you have some need to believe that your conciousness is eternal, that's OK. So what though? I think it's just a perspective you happen to have; I don't think it helps much to define consciousness. It's just another example of the kind of abstraction that human consciousness enables us to contemplate.
We know we have consciousness and that we can link it to all sorts of capacities, but what is consciousness?
Seems there's something wrong with the asking. Maybe we should ask why or how.