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Originally posted by @rajk999Jesus knows and the individual in question knows. Scripture confirms this.
Only Jesus knows who believes in Him. Simple.
Many will proclaim faith. Only some with be true faith.
Only Jesus knows.
The pastor does not know
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:“
(Romans 8:14-16)
What does “the pastor” have to do with anything? Based on your posts, you seem to have a real antipathy toward reading the Bible and church, and a consistent theme in your beliefs is the diminishment of Jesus Christ’s deity and sacrificial death on the cross.
Do you disagree with that?
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Originally posted by @rajk999Where do the figures 98 percent and 2 percent come from? Have a reference?
98% aka the broad road that leads to damnation
2% - the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
Trinity? What is that?
Have a reference?
The word “Trinity” doesn’t appear in the Bible, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are clearly referenced as God.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeHere’s Romans 6:1-12 in full:
And Romans 6:1-12?
'What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?'
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.“
Do you think Paul in this passage is saying one cannot commit a single sin after receiving Christ or is he saying not to live in sin, live a lifestyle of sin, allow sin to reign over you, etc.?
Originally posted by @romans1009You left out a couple verses:
Jesus knows and the individual in question knows. Scripture confirms this.
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are ...[text shortened]... shment of Jesus Christ’s deity and sacrificial death on the cross.
Do you disagree with that?
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors,
not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live. (Romans 8:12-13 KJV)
Paul addresses his brothers in Christ. These are born again Christians who have the Holy Spirit. Here he identifies two types:
- Christians with the HS who live after the flesh ie that is they continue to sin. They will die
- Christians with the HS who through the Spirit live righteously. They will live.
Not all Christians with Gods Spirit do good works or live righteously as you continue to claim.
Some do and some dont. Paul never preached this once saved always saved nonsense.
Other matters not pertaining to clear doctrine I do not care to discuss.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Don’t agree at all with your interpretation.
You left out a couple verses:
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(Romans 8:12-13 KJV)
Paul addresses his brothers in Christ. These are born again Christians who have the Holy ...[text shortened]... me do and some dont.
Other matters not pertaining to clear doctrine I do not care to discuss.
First, Paul is saying *if* ye live after the flesh and *if* ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, so it’s not at all clear he is accusing anyone of living after the flesh and dying.
Second, there is a distinction between commiting a single sin or sinning very infrequently (and sincerely repenting afterward) and living a lifestyle of sin; the latter, I think, is what Paul is referring to when he speaks of “living after the flesh.”
Third, Paul is clear elsewhere in Scripture (specifically Galatians 5) that as long as a Christian is living in the flesh (that is to say alive as we commonly think of the word,) there will be a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. I think this is especially true because God gave man free will.
I don’t think Paul is saying that some of the Christians he is addressing have the Holy Spirit and will die.
Earlier in Romans 8, Paul says this: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
<<Not all Christians with Gods Spirit do good works or live righteously as you continue to claim.>>
This is not what I have claimed, but I don’t think you’re deliberately misrepresenting my position; I think you didn’t remember or understand it.
All Christians have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them. If they don’t, they’re not Christians because the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
All Christians will do good works as God’s Holy Spirit changes their heart and, consequently, their mind and behavior. Good works may follow quickly for some and may take a while for others, but they will follow.
And just to be clear, I said earlier that all Christians are righteous (in right standing with God) because accepting Christ is how one becomes righteous (in right standing with God.)
15 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Did I say Paul was accusing anyone?
Don’t agree at all with your interpretation.
First, Paul is saying *if* ye live after the flesh and *if* ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, so it’s not at all clear he is accusing anyone of living after the flesh and dying.
Second, there is a distinction between commiting a single sin or sinning very infrequently (and sincerely ...[text shortened]... ng with God) because accepting Christ is how one becomes righteous (in right standing with God.)
If it was a foregone conclusion that all those saved, born-again Christian Saints, who have the Holy Spirit,
- will do good works like you claim
- will go to 'heaven' {lol} as you call it.,
then there would be no need for all that long talk about if they live after they flesh they will die, story. Would there?
Does not sound like any assurance of salvation there.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I don’t read it at all the way you’re reading it. I think Paul is speaking instructively and abstractly in verse 13 and that this is confirmed by verse 12 and verse 14, which would both contradict verse 13 under your interpretation of verse 13.
Did I say Paul was accusing anyone?
If it was a foregone conclusion that all those saved, born-again Christian Saints, who have the Holy Spirit,
- will do good works like you claim
- will go to 'heaven' {lol} as you call it.,
then there would be no need for all that long talk about if they live after they flesh they will die, story. Would there?
Does not sound like any assurance of salvation there.
Also, a few verses earlier, Paul says, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Of course .. Paul is saying
I don’t read it at all the way you’re reading it. I think Paul is speaking instructively and abstractly in verse 13 and that this is confirmed by verse 12 and verse 14, which would both contradict verse 13 under your interpretation of verse 13.
Also, a few verses earlier, Paul says, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
- EVEN IF GODS SPIRIT IS IN YOU
- YOU CAN LIVE IN THE FLESH
And you will die.
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeSt. Augustine actually noted that he also couldn't fully conceptualize it. He was walkign on the beach one day and saw a child playing with a bucket trying to place the ocean into the bucket.
Would an omniscient deity really be content with people affirming something they didn't understand?
Also, does something have any value if we accept it without understanding it?
Just as such, he said he could not put the Trinity into his mind.
I think that is an accurate description.
People who deny the deity of Trinity are probably in trouble for their heresies, I think, but I am not sure. You merely have to affirm the teachings of the Church -- not be examined on something that not even Saint Augustine claimed to understand fully.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneSo then who is Jesus Christ?
Clearly you haven't put much thought into this.
You need to ask yourself what affirming the trinity without understanding it amounts to.
How is it not an untruth if not a lie?
We all know the concept of the Trinity. How about you tell us why it is wrong instead of asking a fool like me to justify it.
It would simply be that if one does not know Christ, and think Him merely a man, you are missing the totality of what the Trinity amounts to, and you do not actually know Christ.
Originally posted by @philokaliaDo you think you would be in trouble for worshipping idols?
St. Augustine actually noted that he also couldn't fully conceptualize it. He was walkign on the beach one day and saw a child playing with a bucket trying to place the ocean into the bucket.
Just as such, he said he could not put the Trinity into his mind.
I think that is an accurate description.
People who deny the deity of Trinity ar ...[text shortened]... hurch -- not be examined on something that not even Saint Augustine claimed to understand fully.
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I have noticed that most of the posts have been about individual spirituality. I was hoping to talk about something very important to that but is more about the corporate experience - practical church.
i realize that the church is not a subject many Christians like to discuss. Its problematic, its a hassle. And there are so many kinds of churches, Right? Which one is best? Which kind are you talking about?
I think it is clear that the local church is not the physical building. But neither is it the division, the denomination, nor the world wide public Church.
Believers in Christ have been scattered into deformed entities. And God wants to recover the local churches. Local church means one city - one church. That is churches according to localities.
I believe God is doing this recovery work today.
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16 Feb 18
The Nicene Creed is useful as are some of the other creeds.
But it is limited.
We don't see in the New Testament churches according to creeds. We see churches according to cities.
Now those with "red letter" Bibles. Please check them and tell me if your "red letter" Bible has the words of Jesus in Revelation 2,3 in red letters. I am just curious.
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16 Feb 18
The Trinity, individual spirituality, and the assurance of salvation are all important topics.
I was hoping in this thread to mainly talk about the local church. I have some wonderful experience of this. And we also have the word of God to really help us to escape the jungle of divisions and come back to genuine oneness of the Spirit and the uniting bond of peace - city by city by city, as Christians.
We can start by first being in spirit,
We can continue by realizing where we live is where we should be one with other Christians who also have the same Spirit.
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16 Feb 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @philokalia
What is funny i that a Red Letterer could theoretically use the "On this Rock I build my Church."
But then he'd be vaguely buying into a Catholic perspective.
The principle of Roman Catholicism is to unite various congregations into a world wide public Church - the Mother or capital so to speak, being in the city of Rome.
This is a defeat to the Christians. The apostles established churches according to cities. Many churches in a region they did not try to unite together to be a Regional Church. Nor did God lead them to unite all the churches on earth to be one World Wide Public Church.
Judea was a region. But we don't see "the church in Judea". Rather we see "the churches [plural] of Judea." (1 Thess. 2:14) .
Galatia also was a region. But the Holy Spirit did not have the NT writers ever say "the church in Galatia". Rather we have under inspiration "the churches [plural] of Galatia." (Gal. 1:2)
Just coincidence? Some of us these day say not.
God's ordination though is revealed.
Asia also was a large geographic region. Yet the Holy Spirit does not give us "the church in Asia" even once. Rather under inspiration it is written "the seven churches
[plural] which are in Asia." (Rev. 1:4)
The boundary and jurisdiction of the church on earth is limited to a locality - one city - one church. Not one region - one church. Even more not one world - one world wide Church.