Dinosaurs floating on a boat covering a flooded earth.

@kellyjay said
Faith and reason are not opposed to one another not matter what some quote by anyone says. You have to have faith to have reason.

I’ll get back to our theme and respond to your last post to me a little later. In the meantime, when you use the word ‘faith’, how do you define it? Maybe you could give an example please. Only because in my years posting in this forum I’m very well aware that non-standard definitions of words are the norm.

@proper-knob said
I’ll get back to our theme and respond to your last post to me a little later. In the meantime, when you use the word ‘faith’, how do you define it? Maybe you could give an example please. Only because in my years posting in this forum I’m very well aware that non-standard definitions of words are the norm.

The only reason we can do science is due to the rational nature of the universe we believe it to be so always. That is faith the trusting in something that we believe is true. If you tell me you will do something and I take your word for it, I am putting faith in you. If I tell you I will do something and you don’t believe me it’s because you lack faith in my trustworthiness.

@kellyjay said
The only reason we can do science is due to the rational nature of the universe we believe it to be so always. That is faith the trusting in something that we believe is true. If you tell me you will do something and I take your word for it, I am putting faith in you. If I tell you I will do something and you don’t believe me it’s because you lack faith in my trustworthiness.

You're gonna have to explain the first two sentences a bit better. No idea what you are getting at. Sorry.

@proper-knob said
You're gonna have to explain the first two sentences a bit better. No idea what you are getting at. Sorry.

If our universe were not operating under predicable laws, where we could apply reasoning to reality there would be no science. Many of the founders of science and modern great thinkers saw and wrote about this, some to their bewilderment. Seeing how the universe acts and not knowing how it got that way through the known laws in place is a mystery to some.

@kellyjay said
Faith and reason are not opposed to one another not matter what some quote by anyone says. You have to have faith to have reason.

Martin Luther was not just “anyone”. As the author of the 95 theses, which he famously nailed to the cathedral door, he was the progenitor of the Protestant Revolution against the Catholic Church. He recognised that faith and reason were opposed. Faith necessitates a quantum leap that bypasses reason. Faith cannot be reasoned. It is a position one takes is spite of science because every pore in your spiritual being screams out for it. It is not reasoned.

@pianoman1 said
Martin Luther was not just “anyone”. As the author of the 95 theses, which he famously nailed to the cathedral door, he was the progenitor of the Protestant Revolution against the Catholic Church. He recognised that faith and reason were opposed. Faith necessitates a quantum leap that bypasses reason. Faith cannot be reasoned. It is a position one takes is spite of science because every pore in your spiritual being screams out for it. It is not reasoned.

He is just anyone as the rest of us are! His impact may be greater but he is still no different than the next guy. You might be into idle worship but he is as flawed as everyone else.

@kellyjay said
Faith and reason are not opposed to one another not matter what some quote by anyone says. You have to have faith to have reason.

If you have reason you don't NEED faith. You see obvious proof, no faith needed. If I decide to test gravity with a 20 pound rock falling on my foot you don't need faith to figure out you are going to have a damaged foot. If you start to touch a thousand volt power line you don't need faith to figure out you will burn or kill yourself if you do touch the lines.
When you turn on a flashlight you don't need faith to figure photons will be coming out of the light.

Those are physical things. You need faith if you want to worship your invisible friends.

@kellyjay said
He is just anyone as the rest of us are! His impact may be greater but he is still no different than the next guy. You might be into idle worship but he is as flawed as everyone else.

What do you mean by that? He was a genius who saw stuff other folks did not. Of course he put on his pants one leg at at time like everyone else but without him there would be no Baptists or Lutherans, we would still be owned by Catholics.

Like saying Isaac Newton was just another dude who made a couple discoveries.

@sonhouse said
What do you mean by that? He was a genius who saw stuff other folks did not. Of course he put on his pants one leg at at time like everyone else but without him there would be no Baptists or Lutherans, we would still be owned by Catholics.

Like saying Isaac Newton was just another dude who made a couple discoveries.

As great as the great ones are, they still have the same flaws as the rest of us. So if they say anything about anything, it still needs checked out because we are all flawed. If you think otherwise you have an issue with idol worship.

@sonhouse said
If you have reason you don't NEED faith. You see obvious proof, no faith needed. If I decide to test gravity with a 20 pound rock falling on my foot you don't need faith to figure out you are going to have a damaged foot. If you start to touch a thousand volt power line you don't need faith to figure out you will burn or kill yourself if you do touch the lines.
When you tu ...[text shortened]... e light.

Those are physical things. You need faith if you want to worship your invisible friends.

You can test gravity because gravity obeys the laws of the universe thereby allowing us to test. You believe it obeys the law therefore you test, you have faith in the laws of the universe. I would submit to you, you cannot see them, only test to see if they are truly consistent.

@kellyjay said
You can test gravity because gravity obeys the laws of the universe thereby allowing us to test. You believe it obeys the law therefore you test, you have faith in the laws of the universe. I would submit to you, you cannot see them, only test to see if they are truly consistent.

Kellyjay, answer me this. Do you respect anyone’s authority apart from your own? You clearly have no respect for scientists and science, you have no respect for eminent theologians and current accepted Christian theology because all world faith leaders now embrace the age of the universe as roughly 14 billion years. Are you a Trumpist narcissist only able to process your own world view? Just asking.....

@pianoman1 said
Kellyjay, answer me this. Do you respect anyone’s authority apart from your own? You clearly have no respect for scientists and science, you have no respect for eminent theologians and current accepted Christian theology because all world faith leaders now embrace the age of the universe as roughly 14 billion years. Are you a Trumpist narcissist only able to process your own world view? Just asking.....

What in the world does Trump have to do with anything we are discussing? For crying out loud, is that where your brain goes each time you disagree with someone? If so you have a little world you live in if that is the case.

@kellyjay said
What in the world does Trump have to do with anything we are discussing?

Well, Trump is a prominent example of a narcissist [and Christian] only able to process his own own world view. Added to which, you are a Trump supporter. I think pianoman's reference to him was a canny move that can only make for an interesting interchange in which you surely have nothing to lose ~ unless of course you just throw your hands up and cry "For crying out loud ".

@pianoman1 said
Kellyjay, answer me this. Do you respect anyone’s authority apart from your own? You clearly have no respect for scientists and science, you have no respect for eminent theologians and current accepted Christian theology because all world faith leaders now embrace the age of the universe as roughly 14 billion years. Are you a Trumpist narcissist only able to process your own world view? Just asking.....

Of course, but simply because another person tells me something is true it doesn't mean it is. I have a great deal of respect for science, I have a great deal of respect for theology too, but people are flawed, those in and outside of both theology and science. Both are filled with people that can be fooled, be in error, allow themselves to fool themselves wanting something to be true so they overlook how they can be wrong. You dislike that I don't simply take someone's word for something because they have a degree?

You think doctors are flawless? They make judgments that affect people's lives in the here and now, and we can see the results of what they do. Now if they can be wrong in the here and now, exactly why are those who think they know what occurred millions or billions of years ago be given standard of trust that they talk to about things out of sight and out of our time? With doctors we are told to seek other opinions, it’s a good standard to confirm the truth of any diagnosis, don't always trust what your told.

I'm not saying everything said are errors, but they need to be looked at carefully and not just accept what we are told. For example I like Sir Isaac Newton points he brought up, these are not statements of faith on what occurred out of sight and out of our time. That everything will remain in a state of rest unless compelled to change by some force, and then the movement will be proportional to the force impressed upon it, to every action there is an equal reaction to the opposite. To buy into these things is putting faith that the universe is consistent, so with that faith we can justify how we judge, examine, and explain. Without trust and faith in these consistencies in our the universe remain true, what are we relying on?